A behind-the-scenes interview with Lenny Rachitsky on building his newsletter and podcast

00:00:00I just sat down on this rock, on asubstance of some sort. This was as Iwas starting the newsletter, and thisphrase of I have wisdom to share comingthrough me over and over and over. And Iwas just watching this crazyvisualization of some kind of sittingBuddha thing, and that was for 3 hours.It gave me the confidence that like,okay, maybe I do have things to share.>> What do you want to say to our mothersright now?>> My mom doesn't>> to take that back? You started yournewsletter 2019, and it now has over amillion subscribers.>> 1.2 million.>> 1.2.>> Something that we've talked about a fewtimes is the best stuff comes fromactual experience.>> People always say if you want to write,read.>> The source of the best advice is frompractitioners doing the thing for real.At this point, most of my posts areguest posts, where somebody's sharingthe best thing they've learned in theircareer.>> What do you think you'd be doing rightnow if you hadn't started thatnewsletter?>> On the struggle bus of startup life,probably. And then, probably after thatfailed, I would have joined at somecompany as a PM.>> Do you still like it?>> I can't imagine doing something morefulfilling and interesting, but thevisual I always have is the IndianaJones boulder is chasing me constantly.It's like this treadmill you're on.>> Tell me about a time you've been reallystressed in your business.>> Well, here's something I've nevershared.Today, my guest is my brilliant,incredible wife, Michelle

00:01:15Rial, whoturns the table and interviews me. I'vehad so many people over the years wantme to be interviewed on this podcast,and what could be more fun than doingthis with my wife? I share things duringthis conversation that I've never sharedanywhere else, including some of thehardest moments from this journey. I geta lot more personal than I've ever beenon this podcast. Also, the day thispodcast comes out just happens to be mywife's birthday, and she is also aboutto publish her third book, a children'sbook called Charts for Babies, which wechat briefly about. Definitely pre-orderit. This was so fun and so special. Ihope you love it. Let's get into it.Here's a puzzle for you. What do OpenAI,Cursor, Perplexity, Vercel, Plaid, andhundreds of other winning companies havein common? The answer is they're allpowered by today's sponsor, WorkOS. Ifyou're building software forenterprises, you've probably felt thepain of integrating single sign-on,SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and otherfeatures required by big customers.WorkOS turns those deal blockers intodrop-in APIs with a modern developerplatform built specifically for B2BSaaS. Whether you're a seed-stagestartup trying to land your firstenterprise customer or a unicornexpanding globally, WorkOS

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00:04:11Michelle Rial, thank you so much forbeing here. Welcome to the podcast.>> Thanks for having me.>> So, what are we doing here?Uh people constantly ask me to getinterviewed myself. People are like,"Why don't you sit on the other side ofthe microphone and get interviewed?" AndI'm just like, "Nah, I likeinterviewing."Uh but, you have a book coming out.And we thought this would be a funopportunity to uh have you interview me.And so, this is going to be your show.I'm just going to be here asking mewhatever you want. I have no idea whatyou're going to ask me. And uh we'll seewhere it goes. And I'm going to ask yousome questions about your book, too. So,I'll turn it over to you, Michelle. Whatdo you got What do you got for me?>> okay.Babe.Yeah.Um yeah. So, your you started yournewsletter 2019.And it now has over a millionsubscribers.>> 1.2 million.>> 1.2, sorry.>> Mhm.>> Uh and your podcast is uh you veryfrequently one of the top 10, is thatright?>> Yep. It's like right around Yeah.>> Yeah.>> Top 10 tech podcasts.>> Yeah.>> Yes. Hell yeah.>> I love it. When I met you, I think youwere something called a productengineer.>> I was a software engineer. Let's seewhen

00:05:26you met me. No, I think it was a Ithink it was still a software engineer,yeah.>> I think you went from software engineerto product engineer to product manager.>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right.>> wondering what do you What do you thinkyou'd be doing right now if you hadn'tstarted that newsletter?>> If I like stayed in my job.>> Yeah, if you hadn't and then that Imean, I'll get to another question aboutwhat do you think is the one moment thatled you to your newsletter, but you cananswer either one.>> So, is the question after I left Airbnb,what would I be doing? Or is it like ifI didn't>> Just if you if you hadn'tor if you had gotten a different job. Doyou think you would have gotten adifferent job? Stayed there?>> So, when I left my job, I was at Airbnbfor 7 years. I was I had like plan A,start a company again. Plan B, join astartup as like their first PM. Plan C,join a big company as a PM. Plan D,advise companies, become a consultantkind of person. Nowhere in that plan waslike do this crazy thing that I do now.I had a lot of startup ideas. As I wasexploring the startup ideas, as youremember, I was just like tinkering andprototyping and building stuff. And thenon the side I was writingthings that I learned and things Iwanted to share. And you were just like,"Why are you writing? Why do you There'sYou can't make money on the internetwriting.

00:06:42You should be doing this thingthat you're good at, startups andbuilding and tech and stuff like that."And I'm just like, "I don't know. Itseems like there's a pull here, so I'mjust going to keep doing this.">> I don't know if I said things thatyou're good at. I just said I just saidlike as a personputting writing on the internet. I don'tmake anymoney unless people buy my book, yeah.Plug.>> Ta-da.>> Yeah.>> Yeah. So, I guess to answer yourquestion, I probably find anothercompany to start and it probably wouldhave failed.Considering most startups fail. So, I'dprobably be in this like oh, no, this isthis thing I think I should be doing.I'd be in a on the on the struggle busof startup life, probably. And thenprobably after that failed, I would havejoined a some company, I guess, as a PM.>> So, then I guess going back to thatquestion of what what do you think Doyou think there's a moment or acollection of moments that led you to gofull in on the newsletter or even startthe newsletter, start the medium postthat led to the newsletter?>> Yeah, it was definitely a collection ofmoments. It's kind of this like littlejourney that I just followed pull thatwas starting to work. And I'm just like,"Huh, maybe there's something here."So, a few moments along that journey.One was the first thing I wrote on theThis is like the first thing I wrote onthe internet.Did very well. It was this post on whatI learned at Airbnb. Like Mediumfeatured it. It went all over the place.Brian Chesky shared with the wholecompany. So proud of what I shared. So,that was a nice moment

00:07:57of like, maybe Ihave something to share. And then Iwrote a few more things on Medium atthis point. And there was more of justlike, hm,this is working. People seem to like it.Then I had a conversation with this witha friend, Lee Jacobs, who's a VC now.Cuz I was telling him, I don't know whatI'm I don't know what I'm doing this.Why am I writing? This is like not afuture. I should be focusing on thestartup. And he's just like, you seem tobe enjoying it. People seem to be likingit.Which is very rare, that Venn diagram ofthings. Just like, how often do youenjoy something and people value it?And maybe there's a way to make money inin the future. So, his advice is justmaybe pursue that and double down onthat and maybe it'll go somewhere. So,that was a moment.Another maybe big moment was9 months of doing the newsletter. So, Idecided, I'm going to move to Substack.I'm going to write every week. Itweeted, I'm going to experiment withthe newsletter, a weekly newsletter. Seehow it goes.Uh and so, I did that every week for 9months. And I just remember this moment9 months in where I was like, huh,I've been doing this every week for 9months.Which means I could probably do this for9 more months. There's this uh Lindyeffect. I don't know if you know this,but there's this concept of a thingsomething being Lindy, which is uh aslong as it's been going for,

00:09:13it will most likely last at least thatlong in the future. So, I thought that,okay, I could do this for at leastprobably another year. I have all theseideas and things I want to write about.So, let me just keep doing this. So,that's when I decided to add the paywalland start charging and to see if I couldmake money doing this thing. Also, inparallel, as you know, uhI was doing this based on the assumptionthat my Airbnb stock was going to beworth something and I could take thistime to explore.And then COVID hit and Airbnb might haveI was like, over.RIP Airbnb all over Twitter. And I waslike, huh, maybe I need toget a job for real. And so I'm like, Igot to make money on this thing. Let metry. So that's when Istarted the paywall. And so And then Andthen it worked. That's like the othermoment I think. I launched the paywall.And it worked. You know, I mademeaningful dollars like a month in.>> So speaking of Venn diagram, you said,I'm good at it and I and I people likeit.>> like it.>> Oh, and I like doing it. You like doingit.>> That's a really good cuz I didn'tmention that. Okay. That's so That's sotrue.>> Well, that's the Ikigai, right? Yeah.>> Yeah, I think Ikigai is like fivethings, right? It's like a whole bunchof stuff. Yeah, but that's like atrigger point cuz it was just like,people like it and I'm good at it.>> Mhm.>> But without the actually enjoy it.>> I think you said, I and I like doing it.>> it. Okay, cool.>> Do you still like it?>> I do.In

00:10:28almost every way. Like, I can'timagine doingsomething more fulfilling andinteresting.Just basically, um, my job is to writeabout things that are interesting andshare people's interesting insights andexperiences. And interview people andextract wisdom. It's just like, sointeresting. It's my own thing, whichmakes it extra interesting. ButI think a lot about uh this artist Finchwrote this blog post, How to Become anArtist.And at the top of his post, he's justlike, you prob- you should not become aprofessional artist most likely becauseYeah.Because once it's a thing you have todo, it changes it. You have You know,you have to do it. So now I'm on thislike this is the downside. But I justwant to preface with saying, this isincredible and I can't imagine doinganything elsethat I enjoy more. Butuh having to write a post or put out apost every single week and a podcastepisode every week, you know, it's likethis treadmill that you're on. So youhave to kind of get used to that. Thatpart is no fun. But again, I can't thinkof anything better that I could bedoing.And And it kind of goes up and down.Sometimes like I love it. I'm so happy Iget to write a thing every single week.And then some weeks I'm like, "It'd becool not to do it this week." But that'spart of this life, you know? Cuzotherwise you can't do this. You can't

00:11:43You can't survive in this way if you'renot doing something consistently andmaking it awesome every week.So, it's a part of it. So, the visual Ialways have is the Indiana Jonesuh boulder is chasing me constantly.Because you put out something like Ihave a post come out What's today? We'rerecording on Wednesday. I had a postcome out yesterday. And then I'm it'slike, "What's next week?" All right.That's done.All the work you put into it, over.What's coming out next week? And it'slike every week.So, the big question I I don't have ananswer to is where this all goes longterm.Cuz somedaywhether it's at uh 7 years old or 100years old or 60 years old, I don't know.Like maybe I won't be able to do thisevery single week. So,I think about where does this all go? Idon't think there's a answer to likeSubstack writer podcast life long term.Like what do you do?>> According to the Lindy, right?>> There you go.>> So, 2019 you have7 more years. 7 years since thenewsletter.>> So, I think yeah. Okay.7 more years.>> run out of ideas.>> Okay. So, we got 7 years. I I could dothat.>> Yeah. Okay. So,speaking of the boulder, you don't seemlike a stressed out person and I don'tsee you as a stressed out person onlylikepotty training.Sleep the you tell their baby sleepstuff.>> Yeah.>> I don't see you as a stressed outperson.

00:13:00Uh do you think there's anything behindthat? Do you think that's just you?And or are you just stressed and doesn'tyou don't show it?>> I think there's an element of I'm morestressed than I come across as and evenrecognize in myself.Like I get these headaches sometimes.I'm like, "What is it going on there? Isthat stress or is that something else?"So, I think there's a bit of I'mprobably more stressed than it lookslike and that I even feel.But I think I'm probably less stressedthan the average person. I think part ofit is genetics.And then part of it is I I work on it.Like I justhave learned to adjust the way I thinkto reducestress and to not take things seriously.But I think I I think honestly it'sprobably like 70% genetics. I'm justlike, "Yeah, it'll be all right. It'llbe all right." As you know, something weargue about. "Nah, it'll be all right."It's some likeraw chicken and it'll be fine.It's fine.>> Uh so, okay. Do you have any tools orany kind of like any of done differenttypes of meditation? We've donebreathing course together. You know,what Do you have a favorite? Do you>> Oh, to like calm down and de-stress andthings like that?>> you did a10-day silent meditation right beforeyouended up writing the post.>> Mhm. That's true.>> That's true. That was a big wisdom. Oh,here's something I've never shared.Okay. You asked

00:14:15about going back to themoments that led me to this life.So, I went on auh bachelor party trip with somefriends. This isn't where you think it'sgoing.>> I hope it's not.>> So, it was a trip to Joshua Tree with afriend. And uh there was psychedelicsinvolved on this trip.Uh and I just remember So, we went toJoshua Tree. I just sat down on thisrockon a substance of some sort.Uh andand this was as I was starting thenewsletter.And I just remember sitting there forprobably 3 hours in this one spot.And I was just having thisdeep breathing happening and this likephrase of I have wisdom to sharecoming through me over and over andover. And I was just watching this crazyvisualization of some kind ofsome sitting Buddha thing.And it's just likeI have wisdom to share. And that was for3 hours.>> That made you write the post?>> That made mefeel like I can do this. Like it gave methe confidence that like, "Okay, maybe Ido have things to share." Yeah, that wasa really powerful moment just to give megive me confidence that there'ssomething inside me that's like, ohyeah, maybe I can I could do this thing.So that was a big moment.>> What do you want to say What do you wantto say to

00:15:30our mothers right now?>> Oh no.My mom doesn't know.>> take that back?>> No, no.>> Do you want to crop it out?>> This is umOkay, Mom, I didn't I did I did I didsome stuff.>> It's okay.>> We Okay, so>> to time to share.>> And then yeah, you've done meditate youdid 10-day meditation, you did aspecific type of meditation that thatseemed to me to to affect you in likephysical ways.>> Yeah.>> And then you told me once about ahappiness course you took.>> Yeah. That was actually prettytransformative. I took this onlinecourse at University of Pennsylvaniaabout uh the psychology of happiness.And it was basically all the science ofwhat makes you happier and how to behappier.And that really had a big impact on mebecause it showed you you can increaseyour baseline level of happiness bydoing a few things. And one of thethings is just like thinking morepositively. Like thinking moreoptimistically. There's also likegratitude stuff that I didn't find asuseful. But there's just something aboutyou can Everyone's got this baseline.That was actually a big learning fromthat course is Everyone's just kind ofhas baseline level of happiness. And youcould be like at 100, you could be atzero. Probably more Most people are inbetween somewhere.And like something amazing happens, yougo all the way up in happiness and thenyou come back to that baseline.Something terrible happens, you go backto that baseline.And

00:16:45the main thing you can do is work onimproving that baseline so that you comeback to a higher place.So that's what a lot of thework is and what you learn in thatclass.And one of the things is just beoptimistic. Just kind of have a positiveoutlook.And don't let your mind kind of spiralinto these like, it's going to beterrible.So it was a lot of just like think morepositively. And I feel like my baselineoflevel of happiness has gone up.And I think that it Yeah.>> And you told me exercise, too. Like youused to run.>> Yes, that was a really good insight. Soexercise the the science This was like,I don't know, 15 years ago. I'm guessingthere's new research. But, theinteresting thing there isexercise doesn't make you happier, butit brings you out of the negative. So,you're negative one without exercise,and exercise brings you to zero.So, that you're not depressed,basically.>> Speaking of stress>> Okay, then I have a question for you.>> Oh, okay. Let's do this.Let's do this.Uh becauseI know on your podcast you have alightning round.>> Okay.>> Um we're going to do a thunder round.>> So, is that extra fast?>> No, it's sound. Your one thing that Ithink stresses you outthe most at times is uh your misophonia.Which is you want to explain what it is?>> Yeah, it's likeIt's funny to talk about it, but

00:18:00it'sthis I It's like this disorder.It's like a real thing in the brainwhere I get bothered by certain sounds.And so, I get very bothered by peopleeating with their mouth>> Okay, thunder round is going to be topfive worst sounds.Or you can rank these sounds.>> Okay, okay. You're going to give me thefive.>> Like likebest best sound to worst sound.>> Okay.>> Right? So, like 10 is worst.>> Okay. What are likeWhat are the best sounds?>> Okay, what's Okay, okay. Let's saychewing. Chewing one to 10.>> Chewing like with the mouth open, justlike>> Chewing with the worst Yeah.>> I hate it. 10 is the worst. Yeah,it's you know.It's probably it's in the Yeah, it's 10.9 or 10.>> Or like like nails on a chalkboard,what's that?>> That's like less bad for me.>> Right. What's the number?>> Like if it's on sitting right next to mejust like chomping away.>> Yeah.>> And it's so awkward to ask anyone tostop. I hate doing that. It's like soweird. They're like, "Shut up.">> you're sweet.>> But, it's just like, "What?">> Yeah.>> I'm just sitting here eating. Leave mealone.>> Yeah. That's how I feel whenever I doum by accident near you.>> Yeah.>> Uh okay. So, nails on a chalkboard,what's>> That's like six. I don't know, five.>> What about um>> I don't mind that.>> What about like a baby crying or yourWhat's a baby crying versus your babycrying?>> Mhm.Baby crying like uh So, 10 is the worst.>> Yeah.>> So like how loud? Like very loud baby

00:19:15crying?>> like in a in a newborn phase, like likedidn't know what to do, like>> Oh, yeah. That was really Like when whenJude was born>> Yeah.>> Oh, yeah. That was pretty hard.It's thunder out. Okay.Uhlike eight.>> Okay. Okay. What about like umwhen Jude says "Papa"?>> Yeah.>> One.>> One is the best, yeah, and>> Is there any other sound you>> Jude laughing.>> Okay.>> Okay, you're going to say it. What aboutlike another bad sound?>> Mhm.I don't know.>> Okay, you can you can ask me now if youwant.>> Okay.>> If you're gettingstressed>> No, no, no. I don't like there's notthat many bad sounds. It's just likevery specific bad sounds that I'm justlike>> Basketball?>> You know, if there's just like if I'mtrying to calm like be calm and there'slike a bunch of commotion, like okay, uhlike a gas, you know, blower.>> Oh, yeah.>> I'm trying to work, you know.>> That's I think a notorious one forpeople. What is that a 10?>> It's like if it's super loud and rightin my face, I would say let's say aseven.>> Okay.>> That's a bad>> You can ask your question now if youwant, or I have more for you.>> I'm going to ask you a question. Souh so you make these incredible geniusfunny charts. There's one example onthis book. So you have this first bookhere called Am I Overthinking This,which a lot of people identify with.

00:20:30It has sold many copies.Uh so you're you create all these chartsthat try tosynthesize things in life, things peopleexperience, things people feel. A lot ofthese charts get shared on socials bypeople that steal your charts and justpretend like they made this or justfound it and they cut out yourattribution.They make pillows and mugs and there'slike all these websites that sell allthese charts you've madejust like on swag that you get no creditfor.I know it's bothered you a lot over theyears. What makes your charts soshareable, so widely? How do they go soviral so often?>> By the way, I stopped looking at thatcuz it doesn't help me. Anyway, um>> That's good. I think that's for thebest.>> Well, I think like I think asas your thing has gotten moresuccessful, it's like not as importantto me. I do think it's interesting thatthey are often like detached from me,which is I don't know why. But, um>> Yeah, people want to get credit.>> when they do. Um and it I I think I canfigure out some of them it's clear whenI make it whether it's like I make itand then I let it sit and then someother some like moment happens or I'mlike, "Oh no, this is what it needs."and then I'm like, "Now it's Now I canfeel that's really good." andusually it's like it's something thatmakes me laugh or cackle even though I

00:21:46made it. It's like like it's like, "Oh,I've already seen this in my own brainand it's still funny to me." or makes mekind of like tear up, then I feel like,"Okay, I think people are going to likethis." I am often wrong.And sometimes too, like there are thingsthere's something from that book that Ididn't share at all, but someone took aphoto of it. That's how it went viral islike just a photo of a page of a bookthat people loved.>> Like it wasn't even like a digitalhigh-quality picture. It's just likesomeone took a photo, yeah.>> Yeah, which is interesting as well, butand also people's attention spanssometimes they're just what I what Ilike to make is things that are reallysimpleandquick andshow you something you haven't thoughtof before.And I think that if it's really easy todigestpeople's attention spans are short thesedays and if it makes them feel somethingis another thing and it's also nice tomake something that'sthat isn't a lot of like physical laborbecause some things you can make and itcan take you foreverto draw out because my brain does workin this like overthinking kind of way oflike this, but then oh this, then this.People like it when it's really simple.>> Yeah. I love your point about likethe way you know a chart is done isintrinsically you feeling like this ishilarious.

00:23:01This is makes you laugh,makes you feel something and it'ssimilar to the way I think about mynewsletter posts andyeah, more more with the newsletter thanthe podcast is it just to me it feelslike this is like really interesting andreally good. It's very like not waitingfor other people to give you,you know, approval or feedback. It'slikeI feel this is good.And I think that's really interestingthat that's similar to the way Iapproach my stuff. I find that when youwork on your charts,uhyou're like you think so many levelsdeep. They're like they're like sothey're like too clever sometimes and Ifeel like cuz it's your point, peoplehave a short attention span. Sometimesthey're like too clever and I have tolike, okay, this is too many layers youhave to understand and I have to likethat's a little much. You have to likesimplify it a little bit.Yeah.>> Yeah, you're my editor.Sometimes.>> I try but you're like, no, you're like,I don't care. I don't I don't care aboutyour feedback. You're>> No, you're you're usually probablyright.>> Yeah. Okay, let me ask you one morequestion and then we could switch itaround again.How do you come up with your ideas foryour charts? You have so manysuch variety. You had an adult book, youhad a children's and now you have achildren's book. Uh you're working onlike charts for parents, you have allthis other stuff going on.Where do your ideas come from, Michelle?>> The ideas come from just living life andnoticing

00:24:16noticing a lot of things andthen also kind ofum observinga lot. I I know that I've been reallyprolific when I've been meditating andit in meditation youlearn to kind of observe your ownthinking and if you're anxious aboutsomething like, oh, I'm that's funnythat I was anxious about that. Randomthing that I I've never thought about itthat way before and which is interestingbecause it is kind of like overthinkingevery moment,which it meditation shouldn't beteaching you to do, but that's whathappens. But I I've noticed if I focustoo much on my work, I stop living lifeand then I stop having ideas.And it's a little different withchildren's books, which is what I'mworking on right nowbecause it's not like relatablethings. A little bit, but it's um morechildren's concepts. But the adult stuffhas to be just through living life.>> Noticing, yeah.>> Yeah, noticing.>> Makes me think about I think DavidSedaris had this story where he just hasto say yes to everything he's invited tojust cuz he needs to have experiencescuz he just has to keep pumping outstories. So he's just like, "Sure, let'sgo to Vegas right now. Let's do it."So I feel like that's a lot of the workhere is just a

00:25:32live real life. You can't just kind ofsit there and come up with ideas. Youhave totry stuff and do crazy things.>> Yeah, so the first So my firstchildren's book, which is is out soon.Um that one actually came out of kind ofobserving parenthood and early newparenthood moments. That's how Istarted. I started at the beginning ofthe notebook writing kind of like tryingto make charts for new parents, but we'dbeen reading so manykids books together that I just had thislike da da da da da da da like rhythm inmy head of children's books. And so whatit I just turned to the back of thenotebook and started writingmore like children's book rhymesinvolving cats.>> of a notebook cuz you're working on adifferent book and you're just like>> I had this notebook. II had to I had to put my questions infor you.>> What?>> Yeah, and so I started off in the front.Um I'm not going to show you.>> So you started in the front on adifferent idea.>> I started off in the front charts fornew parents.And then I was like got, you know, a fewinyou know, like a good amount in. Andthen I was just in the park writing andthen I kind of was just like, "Yeah, butI I have always wanted to do thesecharts for kids or for babies."And I just kept wanting towrite that. So I started in the back andthen I filled it up that way.>> I love that this is another example ofjust following

00:26:47pulland not just doing the thing that you'redoing. Just like, "Huh, this is pullingme in. I'm going to try it and just seewhere it goes."Look at this.What a callback. Okay, back to you,Michelle.>> Okay, back to you.>> Back to me. Back to you through me.Through you.>> Okay. Okay, so um tell me aboutI I do want to ask you this question,inspired by our friend who like reversenicknames you and says like Leonard. Isyour name full name Leonard? Where doesLenny come from?>> the way, reverse nickname meaning theygive you nickname without you likeasking them to.>> there's people who give you a nicknamewithout you asking.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> He gives you the full name.>> Oh, I see. Makes it long.>> Yeah.Is that a thing? I'm just making it up.>> Okay, I like that. Okay, so the questionis my Well, my real nameuh so when I moved to the US from theUkraine, which we recently chatted abouton a podcast with Boris, which turnedout to be a big big news>> Oh, that's>> for people I got to say, yeah. Myparents named me Leonid.Was my real official first name in theUS.But, they called me Lenny. Everyonecalled me Lenny. And so when we becamecitizens, you could change your name.And so my parents just changed it toLenny. So, that's my real name.>> It's just Lenny. No No Leonard.

00:28:03>> Leo. Yeah.>> No, yeah, Leonard though.>> Just Lenny.>> Just Lenny.>> Yeah.>> I love it.And Leonid as in it's it's a Russianname or there's also the likestar constellation.>> Oh, the Leonids. I don't know. I thinkthey just asked their friends just like,"What is My Russian name is Lonya." Andso I think they just like, "What's theEnglish version of that?" And I'mguessing some of their friends are justlike, "Leonid."I don't know if they named it afteranythingspecific.>> Can I share any of your nicknames? I'mgoing to assume now.>> What are my nicknames? Okay, go for it.>> UhI don't know what they are. LikeLonchik.>> Okay, sure. I could try that. Sure.>> Do you like it? Do people call you that?>> Well, it's like my family calls me that.Yeah. It's like a Russian Yeah, it'slike a Russian little nickname, Druchik.>> Yeah.And you Okay, but like strangers, canthey call you that?>> Uh no, don't call me that.>> Okay, okay. And speaking of strangers,how do you feel when people approachyou? And And is it weird at all? LikeLike Like does it remind you howbig your newsletter has gotten? Or likeDo you like it?Do you like certain ways of approachingit?>> Yeah, so I guess what you're uh speakingto is when I walk around the Bay Area inparticular, people often recognize me,which is extremely weird. And startedwith the podcast once it

00:29:18Likeinterestingly, I had the newsletter for4 years.>> Yeah, you got to be like you got to bestealth.>> Yeah, like my face was tiny in someTwitter profile. But I once I startedthe podcast, people justYeah, it just It was like very weird thefirst time it started happening and thenAnd now it happens uh quite a lot. Ilike it a lot. It's very cool. I reallyappreciate it. It makes me feel reallynice.I'm not bothered by it in any way. Uh italways is very flattering. People arealways so nice and just have endlessnice things to say. I've never had a badexperience though when just trying tosay hi to me. Soplease say hi.>> What if Okay, that's great.>> And I often ask people what's theirfavorite podcast episode or favoritenewsletter cuz I'm just curious. II always ask just like, "You're founder?You're product person?" Like what's yourstory? Yeah, it's really>> if you're in the middle of if you'relike at a coffee shop and you haveheadphones on and somebody says like,"Hey." Or if you're like playing withyour kid, what do you think?>> I think you're projecting>> Right.>> about what you wouldn't want.>> Girl, yeah.>> People don't do that. I think peoplehave been generally very conscious. Youknow, there could be a moment of justlike we're getting somewhere and I can'ttalk for too long and I don't want to berude.>> Or you're like in a focus. It's>> Yeah.>> But But thenYeah.>> It hasn't been a problem yet.Uh almost like 99% of people have beenvery considerate. Yeah. And I don't wantpeople to feel like they can't just talkto me and say>> Yeah,

00:30:33that's cool.>> Yeah, they're always so cool.>> I like that.>> Yeah.>> Is there any like instance of delightful>> Like maybe the first time this happeneduh we live in Marin andI was walking over through San Anselmowith you, as you remember, and there'sthis guy in a little red car driving bywith his son. He's driving by and we'reon the sidewalk, and then he just yells,"Lenny, I love your podcast!"

00:31:01And this wasn't even in San Francisco.It was in San Anselmo. And I was uhshocked. And then he just kept He likeheld up traffic just to say hello. I'mlike, "Oh my god.">> Yeah, I wouldn't do that.>> Yeah, probably wouldn't do that. Andthen I met him later. He runs theHamburger Club in Marin. He's very cool.Cuz I saw him again at another coffeeshop. So, that was quite delightful.>> I love that.Uh, okay. You had just said somethingOkay, people coming up toUm, okay, you're going to have to cutthis. Because>> See, and then we're not going to cut itcuz this is what I go through, too, as apodcast interviewer.>> I thought of something. I lost it.>> This is what I'm constantly dealingwith. That is a challenge of theinterviewer. And I think it's fun forpeople to see cuz you're like, "Okay, Ihave to think about what's I'm going tosay next." And then you're like, there'sa stop, and then you're like, "Oh, [ __ ]What was it going to be?" So, that's whyI on when I do the podcast, I'm secretlywriting notes to myself constantly.>> I I Okay.>> Chicken notes?>> Yeah, well, okay, I closed my Okay, Ishould have written it down. Let's talkabout like thinking back to what whatkind ofum hints that you would start thisnewsletter or likethings that you worked on when you wereyounger that are>> They helped me out.>> Like like a little like or like mildlyadjacent or like, you know, cuz you hadsome

00:32:16what you had like some websites,you had atheist spot, you had like youhad some>> tutorials>> tutorials. That's one.>> So, the question is like, what are thethings I did earlier that helped me withthe work I do now?>> Or yeah, just cuz just looking back likeanything that that is kind of like makesit obvious that you would have have thisnewsletter or like a little more>> I don't think there's anything thatwould have pointedme or anybody to this being the thingthat I do now. It's completelyunexpected personally and I don't thinkanyone saw coming.Uh I had never written anything onlinebefore I started writing. I was alwaysnot like, "Hey, look at me. I've got allthe answers and I have all this wisdomto share." It was always like,"I'm an introvert. I'd like to kind ofstay behind the scenes." So,it was a it's a very unexpected path forme and part of the reason I think I wasable to do it is uh the newsletterstarted during COVID so I could just sitthere and type and put stuff out online.I didn't have to go anywhere and liketell everyone. I could stay like in mylittle hole.But, just touh follow through on these things youpointed out that I did earlier cuz uh Idon't think I've ever talked about thesethings. I had all these different sideprojectsbefore uh like through college, I guess.Yeah, through college. I was like a veryuhuh big atheist and I'm still an atheist,Jewish

00:33:31atheist, which is many Jews. But,I was like very into it before and nowI'm like, "Okay, I don't care. Whatever.Believe it or don't believe."Uh so, I used to run a website calledthe atheists pot.com, which was Redditfor atheist news.Which is not a you know, Reddit is that.It's fine. I don't you don't need it.But, I went to like there's likeconventions we went to.Atheist conventions.Uh so, I did that. And the funny thingis that was the during AdWords whenGoogle AdWords was a way to monetizeyour site. And so, all the ads on thesite because most of the articles wereabout religion were all these religiousdating sites. So, it was like ChristianMingle and then like all these funnydating sites that didn't make sense forthe audience.So, I always thought that was funny. Andthen uh I worked with a friend on thisother project called U torials, whichwas so ahead of its time. The idea was Utorials, tutorials for you by you.>> Nice.>> And so, it was people contributingthings they've learned and writing ahow-to. Like how to make eggs, how totake a quick shower. And there was allthese>> That's like TikTok. Right?>> It's like TikTok. It was beforeWikipedia, I think.>> No, no, I know, yeah.>> Yeah, it's like YouTube. It's like,yeah.>> That's like what I watch TikTok for islike watching people make>> Yeah, and parenting advice, and thingsto be afraid of.>> Yeah.>> Yeah, and dance videos, yeah.

00:34:47So, it was>> That's what your thing was, or that'swhat TikTok is?>> That's what TikTok is, right? Yeah.So, yeah, I was really proud of that.>> Yeah.>> Yeah.>> It sounds good It sounds like it wasahead of its Local Mind was ahead of itstime.>> And Local Mind, so that was my startup.We sold to Airbnb.>> Airbnb, that's all I got there.>> Uh Local Mind, amazing idea andnot something anyone needs, really.>> Mhm.>> Uh>> I still need it.>> Like, you need it once in a while.So, just to briefly explain what thatis, uh it was an app that sat on top ofFoursquare and Gowalla when that wasvery cool, and allowed you to askquestions of peoplechecked in anywhere in the world. So, ifyou're like, "Is there a long line atThe Mill, which is near here? Should Igo? Is there a long line? What's likethe special?">> that, basically. The>> Yeah, we use So, that Google does itwith their like, "Is it busy?" Yeah.Like, you know, all these other waysthat you could solve this problem. Itwas very cool. UhIt was amazing. Nobody needs it, really.>> But there's still things you want to askpeople.>> it like once in a while. You need itlike once a quarter, and it's, "Holy[ __ ] that's so good." But, you know,you can't make a business out of that,soI'm glad that wewe exited.Today's episode is brought to you by DX,the developer intelligence platformdesigned by leading researchers. Tothrive in the AI era, organizations needto adapt quickly, but many organizationleaders struggle to answer pressingquestions like, "Which tools

00:36:02areworking? How are they being used? What'sactually driving value?" DX provides thedata and insights that leaders need tonavigate the shift. With DX, companieslike Dropbox, Booking.com, Adyen, andIntercom get a deep understanding of howAI is providing value to theirdevelopers, and what impact AI is havingon engineering productivity. To learnmore, visit DX's website atgetdx.com/lenny.That's getdx.com/lenny.>> Okay, so you're mentioning the theatheist spot withbunch of religious dating sites.>> Yeah.>> Reminding me that you were my firstonline date ever>> Hell yeah.>> on a>> Snatch straight off.>> platform called HowAboutWe.And I remember that I mean you would hadother dates.Um>> Where is this going?>> Anyway, no. But I remember you were likeum hadSee, I think you had a thing fordesigners.>> Yeah.>> And I wonder if you regret thatpreference.Like designer artist sort of like>> No, not at all.>> stereotype.>> No, no.>> Like I'm not like like you're prettyneat.>> Yeah, yeah, it's true. You're kind ofchaotic, yeah. Which is we can talkabout your process, but it's like it's amessy process.It's true. You know, we have a good yinyang.

00:37:17>> Yeah.>> Yeah, I'm just like>> unstressed, unbothered. I'mbothered.>> Yeah.>> I'm I'm stressed.>> everywhere.>> Yeah.>> We got cleaners. They help things out.>> Yeah.>> Yeah, it's true. You know,It's worth it.>> Okay. So, you're okay with designersstill. Good.Uh and then>> As a as a wife?>> Yeah, right, right.>> Highly recommend.>> Oh, okay.>> Yeah.>> Great. So, yeah, I was going to ask likedo you have any tips for cuz it's likeit's you know, there's there's somethingyou said recently which was like youdon't have any co-workers. I was likeI'm your co-worker. We work at home. Umbut yeah, do you feel do you ever feellike lonely not cuz you were alwaysreally social. And then this goes intotwo like even before you were nichefamous or whatever we want to call it.>> how I describe it.>> always coming up to you on the streetlike hey, you know.>> Yeah, from Airbnb.>> cuz you'reorganizing things andum do you feel like you miss off officeculture?>> Hm. I have People asked me that over theyears and I've always like no, it'samazing. I don't need that. Like I couldjust do my own thing and I don't needpeople around. But I've kind of startedto feel that a little bit. I've justlike huh, there's no one." Like I justsit at home all day and just like but>> Our dog likes to be right next to you.>> Yeah. Yeah, he's sweet.>> Yeah.>> Uh so, I do feel like I do miss it now.

00:38:33It's not like a huge problem, but it'sjust like, you know, it'd be cool tojust jam with someone on stuff. And Ihave a team and I have youand Twitter. Like>> Well, you like to go to coffee shops.>> I like to go to coffee. Yeah,>> What do you get?>> But it's like bowling alone and kind ofI don't know. It's like Is that a goodmetaphor like this?>> And you have your headphones you putyour headphones on, too. And you'refocused.>> Yeah. So, it would be fun. Like I havean awesome team and we jam on stuff, butit's not like Like I think there's a Ido miss having someone next to me thatI'm just working with on the same thing.But I also am trying very hard to neverhavefull-time employees. I'm trying to keepthings really simplebecause it's so easy to build this thinginto like this whole thing that'scomplicated that I'm like, "What have Idone?" One of the challenges with thislife is you can create a job foryourself that you hateby doing things that people want you todo or by following that feelbigand then you're like, "I hate this."So, I'm trying to be reallycareful about what I commit to and do.Coming back to your question, I do missit some, yeah. It's like a new thingI've realized that I miss is beingaround other people like working on thesame thing.>> Yeah. So, speaking of other people likecoming up to you and being around otherpeople,it I think it's become harder for younow that Now that people you don't knowcome up to you because I think youactually

00:39:48have a little bit of faceblindness.>> Absolutely.>> Okay, yeah. People who do know youcome up to you and you're like andyou're like waiting to know if if theyjust listened to your podcast or if you>> Like I know if I know that Like Yeah.Yeah, this is a big problem for me. It'slike aIt's like another brain disorder, Iguess, where I just don't rememberpeople's names. I'm so bad at it. So, Ijust like, "I know you.Who are you?"It's like people texting you from a newnumber. I'm like, "Who is this?">> Yeah, sometimes I feel like that DevilWears Prada um assistant where I'm like,"That's Emily. You worked with her atAirbnb." Or that's not>> you don't do that. You need to do that.>> I I do it sometimes.>> You do that sometimes? Okay.Yeah, so bad at that. Okay, so if youcome up to me and you say hello and Idon't recognize you, please, I'm sorry.I'm really bad at it. And yeah, it'slike gotten worse cuz now I know morepeople through the podcast andnewsletter and like>> Right. And you just know a lot ofpeople.>> Yeah, it's like a lot of faces.>> You're very kind. So people like you.>> I try.>> Yeah.>> Try.>> Okay. So going back to the likeunbotheredvibe that you have, tell me about a timeyou've been really stressed in yourbusiness and then a time you've beenreally stressed in your personal life.>> Okay, so on the business side, uh so Ihave this product pass. So as

00:41:03asubscriber to my newsletter,you get 23 incredible products. And Iused to read them all. Linear, Mobbin,Lovable, Replit, Gamma.I stopped doing this cuz there's toomany now. I had the end of my podcast, Ijust read through them all.And now I can't do it anymore. There'stoo many. I had a launch about a yearago. It's about a year actually where Ilaunched you get a free year of Cursorand Lovable and Bolt and Replit and V0.I think that's five. And souh that was way too good an offer.Peoplecame for it. Bad people.So I just had so many fraudsters,mostly in China, it turned out. Justlike all these fraud rings in Chinatrying to find ways to steal all myall these free goodies. So they set upall thesecrazy attacks and I had to work withStripe and Substack to just like shutthem down.And they just found all these littleexploits in our API that we built andlike this So it's like such a nightmarecuz we're just like waking up tolike every night I was like hard tosleep and I have I have this engineeruh Este who'sso incredible and he like didn't sleepfor a week.Stopping filling all these holes becauseall there's a lot

00:42:18of a lot of smartclever bad guys out there. So that wasextremely stressful. Like it couldtrickle down into the whole thingfalling apart if everyone's like, "Oh mygod, can't trust Lenny anymore."So as you remember it's very stressful.I didn't sleep too well. And it was likevery scary. And there's all these Theyjust kept popping up and there's allthese like rings and it went viral inChina, too. That's like in the studentnetwork. They just Ooh, [ __ ] You got ayear free of Cursor and Lovable andReplet and Bolt and V0.Uh, soit was very stressful.To answer your question on the personalside. Okay, so when our baby was born,the birth was very complicated.Uh, you had to get a C-sectionbecause the induction wasn't getting itthere cuz yeah, it was complicated.>> Complicated. We don't get>> And normally I feel like I would tellthe story, but>> You weren't awake.>> But this is also like a When Harry MetSally, but it's like how the thepregnant person almost died.You know? But okay, but it's from yourperspective because I didn't get toexperience it.>> Right.>> So.>> Yeah, so what happened is we had to Youhad to do a cesarean.They gave you an And so the idea is theybring you into the operating room.They do the anesthetic.The

00:43:33epidural or whatever it's called andthen they let the husband and thepartner in. And so I was waiting in thehall waiting for them to do theanesthetic.>> Your scrubs.>> They gave me a whole bunny suit. Yeah,super sterile. Just standing there inthis bunny suit thing. And the idea isthey do the anesthetic and I can comein. And then watch the birth and allthat stuff and 5 10 minutes in I justhear beep beep beep beep beep beep beepbeep beep beep beep beep.And the doctor runs out, scrubs herhands, runs back in. And then all of thetwo other people run from another roomdown the hall into the room.And I was like, uh-oh.Uh, and then it was like>> You were>> I was scared. I was very scared.Because I had no idea what was going on.It didn't sound good.>> Nobody told you anything.>> Nobody's telling me anything. I'msupposed to be in there. No one's comingout like, here's what's happening. Andit was like 10 minutes of just nothing.>> Yeah. And you were supposed to be inthere after likea minute?>> Yeah, it's going to be quick. Yeah.Yeah, it's supposed to be like, I'mgoing in. We're going to do this it'sright now. And like you're awake duringit, you know, in real life. So, justremember pacing down the hallusing going back to the lessons I'velearned just like, it's going to beokay. It's going to be okay.That's what I remember saying to myself.Just kind of trust that they know whatthey're doing,

00:44:48you know. We're in ahospital. There's a lot of doctorsaround.And and then eventually they came backand they just said that the epiduralwent the wrong direction. And so insteadof going down, it went up your body andso it was stopped It was stopping yourheart and lungs and they had to intubateyou anddo an emergency intubation and get thebaby out and then took like an hour foryou to come back. They were They weregoing to put you in ICU to help you comeback.So. And that was very scary cuz youweren't there. I didn't know what wasgoing on.>> And you got to hold You got to hold thebaby for like an hour.>> Yeah.>> Without So, that's why he's like ahe's likeonly papa. He's a He's another personthatthat prefers you.>> Who's the other person?>> Our dog.>> You know.>> Cuz you're For now. For now.>> you know, you're sweet sweet guy. Butyeah, it's uh>> Yeah, that was really scary.>> Stressful. I kept telling myself it wasgoing to be okay.>> Yeah. That was That was the thing thathelped. But it was like very scary cuzit's just like life could be completelydifferent now. Like something likeyou know, like you could have like theguy that anesthesiologist said it was aone in 50,000 chance.And it's like the worst scenario that isvery rare and very dangerous.And soit was extremely scary. And and

00:46:04luckilyhe did a great job and everyone's like,"He killed it." He did like hehe knew exactly what to do. He handledit really well. But>> Yeah.>> Yeah.>> Yeah, and I don't have any memory ofthat.>> It numbed my>> came back.>> numbed my lungs and I was like, "I can'tbreathe." And then it And then it numbedmyspinal What is it? Brain stem and then Ipassed out.>> How about that?>> How about that? I didn't have to get tohave any>> Yeah. How does it looking back? Are youAre you>> We don't have to talk about it.>> Okay.>> Look at No, yeah. It's uh that that'sthe that's what you said, but it'sinteresting to like not have anexperience around it. And the experiencewas like the live experience is more>> Yeah, it's probably the scariestmoment of my life.>> Yeah, and I didn't I wasn't I didn'tknow anything about itbecause they put me under generalanesthesia and then I was all loopy. Andthen I didn't even know really what Andthen later I read the report like amonth later I read it. I actually hadsomeone else read it who was in thefield and she's like Cuz your cousinLois and she like moved her thickglasses like, "Wow.">> Yeah, she's like a nurse back then,yeah.>> Anyway, stressful moment.Uh yeah. So, you used your tools.>> Yeah, I used my tools. Otherwise, youknow, that's a good point cuz it couldhave been like spiral like, "Oh my god.">> had a doula, but she had left.>> The doula was going to be there, yeah.

00:47:19But for cesarean, she's like, "I can'tbe here." Yeah. Okay, I want to ask youa question, but unless you havesomething you want to follow up with.>> Okay. So, you come up with theseincredible charts. They're just like Youknow, it's like the kind of charts yousee on the internet that are like, "Ohmy god, that's so genius." And watchingyou come up with it is sowild cuz it just it just like it popsout of nowhere. And then there's like alittle bit of iteration and then like,"That's it." What's the process for youcoming up with a chart? And what's likethe environment that you need to createyour best work? I feel like coffee is abig part of it.>> Coffee is like It's like not too muchThere There's one I have that it's likeI mean, it has to be the perfect amountof coffee. So, I actually usually get asingle shot.>> know about a the bomber peak, by theway? Quick tangent.>> Okay.>> Okay. So, there's a concept called thebomber peak.>> Yeah.>> From XKCD, which is just the rightamount of alcohol where you're the mostinsightful and creative, and then itfalls down, which is like, I don't know.I forget why this is Steve Ballmerrelated, but>> Yeah.>> Okay. So, the bomber peak of coffee>> that about coffee, but it's not it'smade out of a little coffee straw, andit's like>> We're going to show this on YouTube ifyou're watching this, so you could seethe chart.>> It's like, I'm a genius, and then I'mhaving a panic attack. And so, that's meis is like is like, yeah, I'll get tothis point where I feel like I mean,coffee is a drug, right? So, if I havetoo much, it is like a drug, and I'm Ifeel

00:48:34like a genius, and I'm like havingall these ideas, but then I think it'sit's too like, I don't know if this wasa real image, but there was an image ofspider webs, and it's like, this is aspider webthat ingested some>> Right.>> this>> LSD and stuff in coffee.>> And then this is this that had spiderthat had coffee, and it's like, insteadof a regular web, it's like a web thatgoes like this.Like, it's like just erratic andtangential, and I have some some reallygood some really good like seeds ofideas in those moments, then I have togo like scream into a pillow orsomething.>> Was that when you have too much coffee,or is that>> I drink too much coffee. But but ifthere's a point like right before that.>> So, single shot latte.>> is what I get. Single shot latte.At least an hour, sometimes it's good tohave a like a somewhere I have to beto a time limit, and then I'm kind oflike aI feel like a machine.Uh and it's like trying really hard toget somewhere, and and then the otherthing is just like a lot of it iswriting something down as I'm out in theworld. Like, writing and thenputting it trying to put it on paper ina way that visualizes it because I'm notstrong at drawing, so and yeah, when Iwas a kid, my dad did a lot of math withme and a lot of likeyou know, fractals and visualization andpatterns, and so I sort of think

00:49:49thatway.Um like mathematically kind of, and umYeah, so it helps me to visualize anidea uhthat in the simplest way possible.>> Let me just say this is very cool thatwe're doing this. This is like reallyfun.So sweet.>> Oh.>> Yeah, this was like really nice.>> Yeah. This our Odessa moment.Yeah.>> You're born in Odessa, too?>> No.No, but one of my questions was like umI don't know.This would be like if I were in theaudience, it would be more like acomment>> Right.>> versus a question.>> We're going to pretend it's going to bea question.>> Yeah, we're both uh our families areboth from countries that like mine fromVenezuela, yours from Ukraine, wherepeople are always like, "Oh."Does that like like we didn't justarrive>> Right.>> from Venezuela or>> from Ukraine, so it's like not>> Yeah.>> the same.>> Yeah.>> So we have to like almost make them feelbe okay. Like it's okay. I mean, so myfamily still lives in Venezuela, but>> Okay, so I asked you a question, okay.Um>> Oh.>> It's back to you.>> Okay, great.>> Yeah. Well, yeah, no, okay, let mereflect back what you said. Cuz this isreally interesting. So a single shotlike so it's like some kind of likeuh neurostimulation, I don't know. Single shot,just enough.Uh I like this deadline piece. That wasreally interesting.>> And it's like not too much time, not notlike not

00:51:0430 minutes. Although that itthat can be why I'm late often is I'mlike, "I just I've almost got it. Ijust, you know." I I I'm a timeoptimist, as you know, that I'm like, "II can think I have it." And then but buta good good time is like 2 hours. AndthenI I have to be somewhere in 2 hours.>> Interesting. Okay, so those are twoelements, and then was there another tofor optimal creativity?>> Oh, and a good night of sleep. Yeah.>> Yeah, something you're working on.>> the bad night of sleep plus plus toomuch caffeine then you don't have anyyou know, you have no ideas, you justhave the like frantic piece of thecaffe- the like the mental energy.>> Anything else? This is a this is reallyinteresting. I think just the idea ofwhat is what creates creativity.>> Mhm. Just like experiences.Experiences and thinking and and almostlike thinking too much about them.>> Thinking too I like that. Maybeoverthinking.>> Yeah, right.>> Back to you, Michelle Rial.>> Over to back to me to you.>> Yeah.>> Yeah. Okay. So, we did the thunderround. We did thethe the worst things to hear. Okay. Andthe best sounds, which your son's>> Yeah.>> laugh.>> Yeah.>> Yeah.And great. Do you Okay, we probably knowyour favorite like product managementbooks. Do you have a favorite children'sbook other than

00:52:19mine?To read to>> Charts for babies.>> to and also like and also maybe youcould you could do more than one becausethat you know they likemaybe there's one when he was a baby>> Like I feel like a chart isand you never take my ideas cuz I feellike you don't want to>> I don't want to>> it to be your ideas?>> Yeah.>> But I feel like there's a books you lovethat are children's books and books yourkid loves. Right? And that's likeI hate reading this one, but he lovesit. So, we're going to do it.>> Yeah.>> So, it's like he decides what hisfavorite are. I love Jon Klassen books.They're so likebeautiful and just likesweet.So, those have been really great.>> They're like actually not sweet. You'reright. There's like death in all ofthem.>> Yeah.>> Yeah, they all end in death.>> Yeah, like "Dude, the bunny thing islike he ate the bunny?">> Was it the bear the bear book?>> Yeah.>> Like "He stole my hat.">> Yeah.>> Yeah, like we start the book and he'slike"He ate the bunny?""Where's the bunny?" Like in his belly.>> But does Yeah, is there any likeoverlap? Do you think there's a favoritethat that that one is that's hisfavorite that you now love because thatyou didn't love initially?>> Yeah, like Dr. Seuss.I think we similarly really feel it'slike way too long this onecuz it's like 50 pages, 60 pages.

00:53:35Like,come on.>> Yeah, it's a lot of words and there'sjust like all these made upanimals andand like he's like, "What's a zong?">> Yeah.>> Like, "There, that's a zong.">> like>> like trying to teach them real things inthe world and then he's like, "What isthe tail of a zong?" It's like, "What?">> The Vipper from Vip? Yeah.>> No.>> Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't likethat.Uh>> But we like But we like reading them.>> We've kind of used Yeah, there's like arhythm.>> But like anything in Spanish I read tohim obviously.And yeah, I meananything you want to say about likeI don't know. Is there any sort of likeproductca- anything you've learned in productmanagement or like growth that hastranslated to parenting?>> You know, likeproduct management isall about influence, and that'sbasically parenting.>> he likes you better.>> Why? Cuz I can influence? But he alsohave to make him do stuff, you know?>> Yeah. Yeah.>> They're like you do have authority, youknow?Uh all the responsibility without theauthority, but you do have authority, soit's easier.>> the I think they're like toddlers thathold the authority.>> It's true.Just like nope. Here's the You sitthere.>> Yeah. I feel like I see your productmanagement in that like you make himLike I should be the one making him achart, but you make you make him likethe like"Here's how if bedtime gets too long,you're like here's how bedtime's goingto go. We're

00:54:50going to read you threebooks, you get a star." It wasAnd then also I'm answering for you.Sorry.>> Uh other things where it's like thingswhere it it's where I'm kind of like,"Yeah, it just happens the way ithappens." You're like, "No, I read abook on it. I read three books on it.And this is how we're going to do it.And and that's And it's going to work."Sometimes it works, sometimes itdoesn't.>> Right.Yeah, I'm not like an intuition guy. I'mjust like what have the smartest peoplefigured out about this? This isn't thefirst time somebody has tried toshorten bedtime.>> Right. Shorten bedtime, sleep throughthe night.>> Right.>> Yeah.>> Yeah, there's like Yeah, there's likesmart people that have tried this stuffbefore.Yeah.And they can tell me what they've done.>> Small eye roll.And okay, so I guess this is I think mylast question for you, and I don't knowif you want to answer it, butlike I, as your wife, uh of however manyyears, like 10,still I don't think I know what productmanagement is. Do you Can you tell me infive words?>> Mhm.It's hilarious. Okay, I will My wordsare impact,collaboration,judgment, alignment,

00:56:01andThis is a really good question, and it'salmost like the the order is like howyou think about product management.Like, you know, it's like the order youput them in.And what else?I'm just saying some stuff, cuz it'sreally interesting. Coordination.>> I think that's five.>> Organizing.Planning.>> Okay.>> Outcomes.>> I have just tuned out.>> There's so many. You're just like, shutup. So boring.And I'm just like, what should have Isaid? That's what I'm going to thinkabout now. But it's, yeah, it's like acrazy weird job, all these differentthings.Yeah. I'm just like, snap out of it. Ikeep thinking>> Mhm. Yeah, I keep>> I'll give you my definition of productmanagement.>> Yeah, well, you can't say mini CEO.>> No, no mini CEO. That's That's not cool.Although I actually do think a PM is amini CEO. Like, I think people keepsaying you're not, but I think you are.>> Yeah, you can't say like not a proj-project manager.>> Not a project manager. That's right. Ithink the way I describe it isuh your job as a product manager is todeliver business impact byprioritizing and solving the mostimpactfulbusiness problems.Something like that.That's many words.>> Yeah.>> You're like, this is why I never knowwhat it is. It's so boring. What are youeven talking about?>> Cool.>> Like, this comes back to the mini CEOthing just to

00:57:16close that thread. I feellike the PM on the team is basicallyshould be thinking the way the CEOthinks. You know, like their job is tothink, what would the CEOdo on this specific product or feature?Because the CEO's job is make thissuccessful, make this business grow. Andso your job as a PM is to kind ofchannel that. What will allow this teamand product to help the business be moresuccessful?>> Do you feel like you're doing that as asthe I guess you are>> I'm everything, you know, like in mycurrent world, right?>> You're editor-in-chief, too.>> Editor-in-chief, yeah.>> Yeah.>> Yeah. But I have a copy editor, I havean editor, so I have I have help.>> Oh, right. Yeah.>> Yeah. People ask me what about productmanagement helped me do the job I donow. I don't think there's anything, tobe honest, except just like things I wasalready into, which is just beingorganized,having a very high bar for quality,communicating like I think communicationmaybe is just like how to succinctlycommunicate points so that people graspthem.>> That's like>> Whoa, look at this. So, we're the same.Introducing>> The gist just communicating somethingsimply.>> Wow.Well, let me ask you one more question.So, maybe it's a close. You wrote twoadult books. You now did a children'sbook.

00:58:32Why the pivot to children's books? Whydid you decide to do a children's book?>> I wanted to do a children's book basedon the firstadult book because I thought that chartsare so they're like a ton of earlylearning concepts put together.So, if you look at children's books,they're you know, the themes are oftenopposites,colors, shapes,feelings, um and then I just I wasthinking like you can reallyyou can really teach a lot from a chartand it's so simple.So, it's a lot it's a lot of opposites.It's big and small.It'sit's uh you've got going up and goingdown, you've got overlapping colors,becoming another color. You've got youcan make a lot of feelings with withcharts. That's the second book in theseries that that I'm>> It's coming out next year?>> Yeah, but we but yeah, I'm I I finishedit, but it's you know, it's still takesabout a yearto to come out after that. But yeah,it's it it was this like uh I wanted towork on it in abstract. Like I had I hadthe thought of wanting to work on it,but it didn't come until I startedtrying to work on another adult bookthat I really just had all these rhymesin my like I had it was more like acadence. I had just like this like da dada da da, you know, in my

00:59:47head and andyeah, I just tried it and it came reallyquickly, the first draft.And yeah, and it it also Yeah, I Ialways wanted to make one because as asa little girl, my dad wanted me to Hewas a geophysicist.He wanted me to be strong at math. Hewas like, you know, cuz at the time itwas kind of like girlsum weren't encouraged necessarily to begood at math. So he he from just like ayoung age, he was always showing me I dothe same with our son, too. Like alwaysshowing himpatterns and like, "Oh, if you flip it,it's like that." Andit's just really fun for me.Andit's it's cool, too,uh writing the first one with like ourson growing up, learning fromexperience, I guess, saying like havingthe experiencesof him as a baby and like how I'mlearning how to teach him things. Thenhe gets a little older and then thathelped me work on the the feelings. AndI've also learned how to speak to kidsas well. When I didn't have any, I waslike, "I don't know what to say to you."And now it feels more natural. And so II I had a a children's book that I triedto write before I had kids. And for me,that one wasn't as good.And soI feel like I gained a little bit ofjust like how to talk tochild.>> That's a really good like segue or notsegue, I don't know, connection tosomething that

01:01:02we've talked about a fewtimes isthe best stuff comes from like actualexperience. Like cuz you had achildren's book, like you just said,that you wrote before you had Jude andthen it wasn't good. And now, having theexperience, you can actually makesomething great.>> Yeah, and then also like another thing Ithought about was just reading so manychildren's books. And people always sayif you want to write, read.Andyeah, we read a lot. We read still a lotof lot of books.And it's it just got me in that zone,too.>> Yeah.It just makes me think about something Ithinkhas been key to my newsletter success isuh it is based on like real life doingthe thing. Like So, at this point mostof my posts are guest postswhere somebody's sharing the best thingthey've learned in their career. Likethe one thing they want to share.Which I love. And it all comes fromsomething I focus a lot on is frompeople on the ground doing the thing,not just floating the cloudspontificating.Andthat's the source of the best advice isfrom practitioners doing the thing forreal.You know, not just pontificating.It's just I think that's a really goodmaybe one takeaway is just the beststuff comes fromdoing the thing and then sharing youradvice versus just thinking you knowwhat you're doing.>> And communicating it simply.>> Simply.And just like refining. You don't evenget into just all the work that goesinto refining.

01:02:17>> And then yeah, we you always talk aboutlike we Yeah, another thing I do is likeI often It's it's stressful because Imake things and I am not sure if they'regood enough yet and I put them to theside and then I come back and and Imight have an idea knowing that it'salready in my head. I might have an idealike, "Oh, yeah, that's what's going tomake that better." Or I go to work on itagain and some other thing adds to it.But then as you've set it aside, thenyou see something else. You seesomething in the world like, "Oh, shoot,somebody beat me to that thing I didn'tever do anything with." Like>> Yeah, I could see that myself. Yeah.To like have something sitting like withwith maybe with your podcast and>> Yeah. Well, let me ask you this and I'llanswer for my own myself. How manyiterations do you do on a chart onaverage? Like how many times do you likeedit it and refine it?>> Uh it depends.>> Yeah. What's like What's like themedian?>> At least five.>> Okay.Like for me I think it's like 60.>> I was going to say 100.>> Okay, that's probably the real answer.Cuz that's how many times I've rewritten>> even physically do that. It's like I Ineed Yeah.>> Yeah, it's just like>> Well, what do you mean by>> So, like when I write a newsletter post,I go through it probably, let's say 50timesmaking it better. Like I start, there'slike something that's the beginnings andthen read through it and add to it. Readthrough it, add to it. Read through it,add to it. Improve, improve, improve,improve. Like 50 times.

01:03:33And then I havemy editor go through it and then have acopy editor go through it and thedesigner help me.>> You don't do that with your emails,though.>> I No.I should.>> I do do that with my emails, which itshould be. I shouldn't be doing that.Like I>> to. I used to. Okay. I used to. I usedto.>> But no, I do I Yeah.>> Yeah. Anyway.>> Yeah.>> Anything else?>> Oh, I mean, yeah, let me You plug Do youwant to plug?>> Absolutely. Uh when is it coming out?>> April 7th.>> April 7th. That's like a few weeks, Ithink, from when this comes out.Assuming this comes out.>> Yeah.>> We'll see how it turns out.>> We're going to check it out.>> We'll check it out. If you're seeingthis, we checked it out. It was asuccess.>> Uh So, Charts for Babies coming outApril 7th.>> April 7th.>> April 7th.>> Yeah.>> All your favorite retailers.>> Yep. Local bookstores.>> Local bookstores.>> Wherever you buy your book.>> What's the age range of kids?>> It's two to four. It's called forbabies. I did do it a tart recentlyabout like how long is your baby a baby?And and it uh yeah, it's like baby isthisinfant is like one to two da da da andthen like it's your baby infinity. Yeah.So, I've noticed like we still call himthe We're not really anymore. We likethe baby.>> for sure.>> Yeah. Um but he's like almost three. Anduh so, yeah, it could be like I wouldsay zero to four orand uh yeah, you know what?

01:04:48Should Igrab it?>> Yeah. Let's grab it. Let's just breakthe frame.>> I people on the recording here, but thethe first like the end paper is whatthis is called. It shows all the likethings you can learn. Sizes, shapes,lines, numbers, directions, feelings,colors, amounts, sharing, concepts,relationships, opposites. Anyway, I'mnot good at self-promotion, clearly. So,let's all stop it.>> it's uh it's it's a lot of learning.>> It's beautiful, it's hilarious, it'sclever, it's>> early learning concepts>> funny>> It's simply illustrated.>> out.>> It's rhyming.>> Willing to it.Uh congrats on releasing this book. Andthat was a lot of work.>> Thanks.>> It was a lot of work.>> I did have a lot of iterations.>> The secret to success.>> Yeah.>> Iteration, editing.>> Editing.>> Okay.>> Spending more time is what your old bossused to say.>> Spend more time on it.>> Spend more time.>> Glad.>> Yeah.>> Anyway.>> Okay. All good? We done?>> Michelle, thank you so much for beinghere.>> Thank you for having me.>> I'll ask you my typical questions that Iask at the end. How can Where do peoplefind you online? How can listeners beuseful to you?>> My website michellemariel.com r i a l orI'm also on Instagram not not too muchthese days but still a little bit. Youall can look for the book Charts forBabies.>> Great.>> Yeah. I don't know if when this will beout you can either pre-order it or orderit.>> Great.

01:06:04>> One of the Yeah.>> Parentheses pre but order.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> Michelle, that's for me.>> And I hope you like it andthank you. Thanks for having me.>> My pleasure.>> I know you have a high bar.>> Absolutely. You hit it.>> Okay. Great. And yeah, I hope you wereokay with the interview.>> A plus. It's going to It's going to donumbers.All right. Let's get out of here. Okay,bye everyone.Thank you so much for listening. If youfound this valuable, you can subscribeto the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,or your favorite podcast app.Also, please consider giving us a ratingor leaving a review as that really helpsother listeners find the podcast. Youcan find all past episodes or learn moreabout the show at lennyspodcast.com.See you in the next episode.