Rabbit Hole: Does Tim Ferriss Dream In Japanese?

00:00:00British supremacyin messaging services. We need to tryand get everybody to use WhatsApp. Thissuperior messaging system and Americansrefuse to use it. You know what I think?>> We was talking about this earlier as towhy Americans don't use WhatsApp more.One of the theories is that America hadfree SMS before anybody else. So, usBrits had to pay. How much would it usedto be for a text back in the day?>> 15p maybe.>> 15p.>> 10p. 10p.>> That would ramp up very fast. Well, thatwas why people used to use elite speak,right? That was why you was there likely because you were trying to snapeverything to under 160 characters.>> Yeah. I once when I was 14 years old hadmy first ever girlfriend and we wouldtext and we would text and we wouldtext.>> You [ __ ] bankrupted yourself.>> Well, my dad's obviously [laughter] mydad comes down one day and you know whenyou have like A4 that you'd stack in aprinter, he just drops that. [laughter]So on the phone bill and I'd racked upabout £800 itemized bill text messages.Yes.>> Wow.>> So I then sent her>> That's a lot of texting at 14.>> I then sent her one final text which wascan't do texts anymore. Let's do calls.So we did calls all the time. Next nextmonth.>> So I had to pay off about 1,200,300of debt

00:01:15to my father.>> Still paying it off [laughter]>> payment plan. Dad, you're [ __ ] blockingme. So that's how>> 14. I'm trying to get I'm trying to getmy credit up. But yeah, I justWhatsApp's are superior. Tim usesWhatsApp. Tim's good on WhatsApp.>> I mean, look, I use every new inbox thatis slowly eroding the sanity ofeverybody who's listening to us.[laughter]>> Do you guys see the Nikita Beard tweet along time ago? It feels like um he saidsomething like um every time I useWhatsApp, it feels like I landed in athird world country. [laughter]>> You're allowed to say that.>> Okay, fair enough.>> You're allowed to say that.>> No, I'm really I grew up on Long Island.I think I'm allowed to say it, too.>> Rewed Sean for you.>> Fair enough. That's the primary reason.>> I think I'm sitting in the same spot.>> That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. People likeSean lost weight and the beard's gone.>> This is the designated seat for theminority. [laughter]>> Uh, you grew up on Long Island.>> I didn't know that. What?>> Oh, yeah. Way out by Montalk. Back whenthere were potato farms.>> That explains a lot.>> That has changed. Now they're nightclubsthat make all the locals crazy. But yes.>> So, is that beyond the Hamptons?>> Yeah. Montalk is the end of the line. Soif you take Long Island Railroad outfrom New York City, it will end inMontalk.And uh it was it was perfectly fineplace to grow up. I didn't realize howstrange it was until I got

00:02:30older because>> strange.>> Well, when you're growing up, what isaround you is normal because you have noreference point. But you're growing upin a location where you have a barbellof income and wealth distribution,right? So you've got all of the let'sjust say the broad Hamptons that peopleknow which would have like the $100million homes on the beach and all thesefamous directors and financeers andlittle white shorts playing tennis andthen you have on the other hand likeaffordable housing when I was growing uplike crack epidemic in certain parts. SoI didn't realize how much was missingfrom the middle of the whole thing.>> Okay. Have you ever seen Mickey Mantel'squestionnaire answer on the 50thanniversary of the Yankees stadium?>> This I feel like this is the kind ofquestion my dad would ask me. He's like,"Do you know>> Henry Rubenstein from 1839?" I'm like,"No, of course I don't.">> Mickey Mantel describes in basically ayearbook for the Yankees Stadium. It'sthe 50th anniversary of Yankees Stadiumhappening. Mickey Mandal, everybody hasasked, uh, tell us what your mostoutstanding experience at Yankee Stadiumwas. Uh, and this was sold for $242,000not long ago, a few years ago. He said,I

00:03:45consider the following my outstandingexperience at Yankee Stadium. It's likelike a questionnaire. He goes, I got a[ __ ] under the right field bleachersby the Yankee bullpen. And then belowthat, it says, this event occurred on orabout. Brackets, give as much detail asyou can. says, "It was about the thirdor fourth inning. I had pulled a groinand couldn't walk at the time. She was avery nice girl and asked me what to dowith the [ __ ] after I came in her mouth.I said, "Don't ask me. I'm nococksucker." Signed Mickey Manel, theall-American boy. And that was soldabout 5 years ago for $242,000.Wow.>> Speaking of Speaking of hedge fundmanagers, I'm sure that's in the guestbathroom of some hedge fund manager'sthird home.>> It's a bargain. [laughter]You don't think that's a bargain>> in Monttok or thereabouts? Yeah,>> I don't know, man. I mean, like,baseball's got a lot of superstition,but that feels like it's taking it to anextreme. There's like a baseball playerthat had never washed his helmet orcleaned it or did anything for hisentire career.>> Literally, the the helmet look I thinkit's Craig Beio if I'm not mistaken, butthe helmet was just and he he believedin that so much that it had to be thatway. Never changed. seen the guys walkout and they go right glove, left glove,

00:05:00tap tap on the foot. It's it's goes frombeing uh preference to routine tosuperstition to ritual to basicallysomething sacred. It's essentially arain dance that every>> or mental illness.>> I think those two crossover>> refer to all of [laughter] my mentalillness as a rain as a rain dance fromnow on.>> I'm going to take these suckers off.That's enough. That's enough [ __ ] POPOV porn, which actually was the reasonthat we wore these when we had uh BonnieBlue on the podcast, so we could put POVin the title of the episode.>> Has she done one of those with PO withthese?>> I'm sure if you go dark enough and deepenough into the Only Fans rabbit hole,you can find whatever you need.>> Let me take my toothpick out of my mouthbefore I address the table. Um, one ofthe things that I've been fascinatedwith for a while, I know you have aswell, Christopher, I don't know aboutyou two, gentlemen, but uh, uh,ethmologies of everything. So, [snorts]um, I was trying to rank my favoriteethmologies or history of certain partsof language. One of them is, um, uh, notEnglish, but it's Malaysian, and inMalay Malayan culture, they use doublerather than plural. So rather thantables, they will use table table, whichis one of my favorite things.>> What if it's three?>> So it doesn't scale. So it doesn't go[laughter]>> that would be a nightmare.

00:06:16If you're atable factory maker,>> the same way we just use plural, we'llsay tables. We could say four tables.They would say>> I assume the number then table. Table.>> Wow.>> Which is such a more fun way of sayingthings.>> The same in Indonesian also.>> Yes.>> Like orangutang, man of the forest.Orang orang is men, right? Man, men>> man of the men. That's somethingdifferent.>> Well, not a man of the man. I thinkthat's>> something you're biopic.[laughter]>> Man,>> but it's it's so much better than a>> lot of heavy editing in there.[laughter]>> Um, one of my favorite ones though isthe word soon. So, the word soon, I willbe there soon, [snorts] was theAnglo-Saxon word for now. But because somany people kept saying I'll do thatsoon and didn't do it then we thencreated the word now to replace it andsoon is what it is today.>> It soon got shifted down in terms of howurgent it means>> generation by generation. What'sinteresting now now has that effectwhere somebody says I'll do that now.You don't really take them literallyunless they say I'll do that. I'll dothat immediately now.>> Yeah. So, it's interesting that you'reseeing this drifting

00:07:31of now now occur aswell.>> I wonder if literally is the same asthat because when people say literally,they don't mean literally. Like, Iliterally couldn't believe it.>> Exactly.>> Well, no, you could believe it.>> Yes.>> Which is the entire point.>> My friend Allesio, he's Italian and hetalks about how he has a differentpersonality when he's speaking inItalian. The Swedish writer HenrikCarlson, friend of mine, he talks abouthow he can access different thoughts inSwedish rather than English.>> You speak multiple languages.>> Yeah. What's Japanese Tim like?[laughter]>> Lot more polite. Curses less than LongIsland.>> Are you totally fluent in Japanese?>> Yeah, I can speak Japanese.>> Amazing.>> What's the story of learning that?[sighs]My first international trip, realinternational trip off of Long Islandout of the US was to Japan as anexchange student at 15 for a year. Iwent fromeast coast to Tokyo and it took himabout 3 weeks just to accept that I wasin Japan because I couldn't believe it.Uh that's how that happened and it juststuck. I was there for a year. I went toa Japanese school, all of my classes inJapanese. Imisunderstoodwhat I was told before getting there,which

00:08:46was, "You're going to haveJapanese lessons." And I was like, "Oh,great." Like, "Japanese languagelessons." And they're like, "Here's yourclass schedule." And I was like, "Ican't read any of this." And they'relike, "Physics, world history." I'mlike, [laughter] "Wait, what?>> My lessons are going to be in Japanese.I'm not going to have lessons allowed.">> Wow.>> So, that will especially I was luckybecause this was pre-smartphoneinternet, not much to speak of. So Icould not coming back to WhatsApp,right? I couldn't procrastinate or avoidlearning Japanese by constantlycommunicating with anyone in English.>> There was no escape. There's just totalimmersion. There's no escape.>> That seems to be I I get it. People goand do um university courses in inSpanish and stuff and it's not just thelanguage. Sometimes they're learningabout the history and the culture andother stuff like that. But if you'retrying to learn a language, and I I didin school, we have to do at least onelanguage in our GCSEs. typically the uh11 to 16s in the UK and I did Spanishand apart from the most basic stuff thatI've probably remembered because I'vegone back out to the country I basicallylearned nothing. It would be if you justwanted people to learn a language doinga six week immersion would what teachyou maybe the same as a year of weeklyclasses.>> You could do a year and six weeks noproblem. There's um [clears throat]there's a

00:10:02method called the MichelleThomas method. And Michelle Thomas,male, uh was Holocaust survivor, thenbecame an intelligence officer, ended upspeaking five or six different languagesand developed a method of getting peopleup to basic conversational fluency in aweek.>> Wow. in a rush in a weekend in terms ofgiving them the scaffolding of the graphthe the grammar and so forth. But it's alot like learning some type of very finemotor skill. Right? If you wanted tolearn how to play tennis, it's like ifyou're playing once a month, you'renever going to learn tennis even once aweek. You're just not getting thedensity of practice and thereinforcement>> for you to go from the like unconsciousuncompetence to conscious competence toetc. etc. Right? You're just not gettingthe proper density.So languages I think you can learnlanguages a lot faster as an adult thanyou can as a kid actually.>> Why?>> Uh because you already have the baselayer of labeling and concepts and so onanddifferent types of abstraction in theform of let's just say grammar or a asubjunctive let's say if you had a

00:11:17million dollars what would you do? Likea hypothetical that is counterfactual.>> These types of things I can explain thatto you. You can't explain that to athree-year-old. When's the last time youtalked to a three-year-old? They're notactually very good [laughter] atspeaking a given language.>> The reason that people mistakenlybelieve that kids learn faster isbecause the kids have no choice. Thekids have no mortgage. The kids have nojob. It's just like>> they're forced into immersion.>> You have no choice.>> Have you heard Nasam Talib's umdescription of how to learn language?Said the best way to learn Russian is togo into a Russian jail.>> [laughter]>> It's a I mean that's a harsh That's aharsh trade. Quickest way. Yeah, true.Life or death scenario.>> You have to really want to learn Russia.>> But you will you will learn. Do do youthink can you think in Japanese, Tim?>> Yeah, I would say that there's uhtypically an English interface. But whenI was in Japan for a year and then cameback to the US, it took me about a monthto get back to speaking English. Shelike I remember>> the first few days when my mom wouldcome in and wake me up and I would juststart speaking to her in Japanese inthis>> days and it took a while to get back tothings. The the soon is pretty funny theemology of that and it makes

00:12:32me wonderifthe much like the say Eskimos and snowright or Hawaiians and water or whateverthat it depends on the historicalpunctuality of a culture. You say thatthe Italians have got five words for>> Zoom. Well, I think it probably issomething like that, right? Because inJapan, it's like now is now. There is nosecond, third, fourth way to say itunless you're maybe being really politecuz the honorifics in Japanese it's like12 languages in one if you really wantto be sophisticated with it. But uh Idon't know if they do it in in uh UK butin uh South Africa they have now thenthey have now now [laughter]>> just like in in certain places in inLatin America they have like a like nowand then they have a like a is kind oflike now but like when you get around toit right or when I get around to it andthen like Aita is like hey [ __ ] nowactually what uh what do you think's thelatest nationality on the planet?H>> Brazil>> the latest>> latest if you were to I'm going toorganize a dinner with somebody and Ican pick a bunch of differentnationalities. Which one's going toarrive on average last? [laughter]>> I feel like they got like the Olympicsbut in reverse.

00:13:47>> Have you ever have you have you everheard of Indian Standard Time?>> I'm not even sure [laughter] it'sactually real cuz it's 1 hour later thanit's actually supposed to start.>> So turns out a long time ago peoplewould go to the movies.>> Yeah. And you know the movie doesn'tstart on time which is absolutelyhilarious. You're everybody just expectsand then the whole term Indian standardtime came about which is absolutelyhilarious but it's typically referred toas 1 hour>> past something after the actual time.>> I've heard Brazilians refer to Braziliantime also. Well, what is the what is theleast punctual?It's anywhere that's got good I thinkyou can talk about culture and peopleand stuff like that, but what's moreinteresting is to just talk about whatis the lifestyle of that particularecosystem. So if you're going to goSpain, Italy, you know, Portugal,they're just you've got wonderfulweather, late nights throughout thesummer, everyone's smoking, having a redwine, like you've been to Palmer Yorkeror wherever, and you see people outsidesat on rot iron chairs having apre-dinner cigarette at 10:30 p.m. atnight. These are old people. They're notgoing out, oh, this isn't the beginningof them going out to go and party andhead to the club afterward. They're notgoing stk for a, you know, nighttimeparty brunch. Uh, so I would say maybesome of the Mediterranean places likethat. I guess

00:15:03as I think further afield, I don't know much about India,but perhaps other issues.>> Neither neither do I, but>> it is um genealogicallyyou do.>> Tim, you know a lot about Denmark. I'mlike, I don't know.>> I wonder this is this is really hippiecrack [ __ ] Um, but this is what we'rehere for.>> Now, now we're getting>> Now we're getting that. I wonder it'slike that Safia Warp hypothesis of howmuch>> Oh, lost me.That didn't sound friendly. The idea isthat um it's the Vickenstein quote oflike the limits of my world are thelimits of my language. And we think thatwe shape language, but language shapesus. And it feels immediately like sotrivial, so esoteric to have theconversation. Everybody kind ofdismisses language as it's almost likeneural linguistic programming that weshouldn't take it seriously. But howmuch the words that we use? So I wonderum obviously uh England, Australia,America, Canada, New Zealand, SouthAfrica share this English ancestry, buthow much then that they have the samelanguage keeps the culture similar aswell versus if you fork the language doyou change?>> I don't know, man. If you go and meet aSouth African and you compare them to aScottish person, they're quitedifferent.>> So true. Both angry. Both very angry.>> So there you go. And we had this at mybirthday in the middle of nowhere.>> I didn't realize the spectrum

00:16:18existswhen it comes to how people think aswell. So, we had my friend Billy and myfriend Cameron. And Billy can't think uhvisually at all. So, he can only thinkin words. Yes.>> Cameron can't think in words at all. Shecan only think visually.>> Mhm.>> You know, there's a test that you can dolike imagine an apple in your mind. Whatlevel of detail can you see the appleat?>> Could you pull that up, Jared? The Applevisual test.>> The lack of it. I think it's calledaphantasia.>> Yes.>> Yeah. Aantia. How do you guys think? Doyou can you do you think more in words?Do you think more in visuals?>> Imagine an apple in your mind. Whatlevel of detail can you see the applewith?>> You know, when growing up there was likethis whole um people with like very umthe visual memories or what whateverthey would just like look at somethingand then effectively recite, you know,>> idetic 50 word.>> Identic is what people think of asphotographic. Yeah.>> The photographic stone.>> So Billy, for example, would be numberfive.>> Yeah.>> Yeah. He could he would just think theword apple. Yeah. Fascinating.>> And then the uh Cameron could see theapple, but if you asked her to createthat to see the the word apple in hermind, she couldn't do it at all.>> I asked her how does she count in herhead and she said it's stairs.

00:17:34[laughter]>> She literally visualizes stairs.>> I mean, I would I'm about 10 out thatdirection. Like I have super hypervisual memory. Like I can rememberalmost every floor plan of everyrestaurant I've ever been in. What's themo like [laughter] if>> Yeah. No, I mean I'm not I'm not tryingto store that.>> So 1010 where we went for dinner theother evening. Can you remember>> the table?>> What was on the table?>> I don't remember the name of the numberof the table, but it's like this theserver door was directly to our left.>> Right. We were effectively the lastbooth at the edge. The bar was>> to my right. Nero was to my left here.Right. you were here uh sort of at mylike 2:00. So, we ordered way too muchedamame garlic and we ordered the rightamount of edamame which is too muchedamame. It's just the only amount ofedamame that's>> it. It depends on how many gallons ofoil you like on your edetamame.>> Yeah, it's true. I think salted edamamewhen you start to try and spice upedamame too much ruins it.>> But here's what I would say just toquickly put something to this. I don'twant people to feel badly if they can'tgo out a few standard deviations towardslike the hyper uh

00:18:49like hyperia, right?The opposite of amnesia because>> uh when you have my dad has this aswell, reallyexaggerated development of certain typesof memory. It can make it really hard tolet go of grievances.>> Wow.>> Slights against you. the email that yousent that ended up whatever it is,right? Like there there is an advantage.There are some tremendous advantages toforgetting.>> And so when you when you're not asselective, you could argue it's almostcounter evolutionary past a certainpoint to have an overly developedmemory. I would say,>> yeah, I think I I can recall like one ofthe things that I was talking tosomebody about was that [clears throat]I have vivid um face recognition likealmost like uh like the face ID typesituation and I can remember faces thatI've seen onlyone time 15 years ago.>> Mhm.>> Problem is this becomes socially awkwardoften times you meet>> there's a massive asymmetry,>> right? You're like, I I I knoweverything about you because we met onceand this was 10 years ago.>> But you can't really bring that up.>> Okay. You freak.>> Yeah. It's like it's it's it's verycreepy.>> You sound like a stalker.>> Exactly. But I did

00:20:04not research them.Similarly with quotes and visuals. Ithink I personally have a very veryvivid like visual element and I canprobably look at something once and then10 years later if you quiz me I wouldprobably get about 90% of that correct.>> Yeah. It's wild. Do you want to tell thestory? the forgetting part. I was crazy.>> Do you want to tell the story about thefirst elevator we ever got intotogether?>> Oh my god, yes. [laughter] I actually um[clears throat] I think there was a newappointment of an Xbox CEO and she waslike some I I made a tweet about it. Iwas like, "Wait, she doesn't really haveany experience with gaming.">> Mhm.>> And um and then Chris and I were inelevator and turns out she was there.>> Well, you're leaving out one criticalfootnote. That tweet was not seen by twopeople. It was it was seen by millions.Millions of people saw you call out theXbox CEO. We get into [laughter]>> I was I was just simply remarking aboutculture and the way that like peopleframe this because like that's a uniquedevelopment.>> But I put my foot in it. I put my footin it.>> Yeah, that was hilarious.>> I'm trying to big up my friend whorecognizes the Xbox CEO and goes, "Hey,you're the CEO of Xbox." Who's someunassuming lady dressed real nice, hadmaybe a partner or security or somethingwith her. I'm like, "You identify

00:21:20correctly." And she sort of sheepishlyis like, "Yeah, yeah, I am. That's me."And I think you introduced>> She was very nervous about it>> a little. Yeah, she was sheepish aboutit, which was quite>> She was the actual CEO. I was like,"Wait, that person's usually just likeso into it or whatever.">> And I said, "Well, you should you signalon on X. You you must a fantastic writertech and all the rest of this stuff.There is a 100% chance that she saw yourtweet." And immediately as soon as Isaid that, the [ __ ] atmosphere in theelevator went frosty as hell. [laughter]>> It was um look, I I nothing against herpersonally, but I tried to do somethingnice for a friend. It was wonderful.>> Came back to uh came back to bite you.>> No, and that that has happened multipletimes. I think going back to Tim's pointabout the forgetting part. I think aboutthis a lot, which iswhat a great feature of of the mind insome sense. like the forgetting partlike I think about AI memory you knowtoday it's so easy to build like tell AIto extract some fact and try to rememberit and we store it somewhere and thenyou basically use it for some otherthing>> it's very common people are doing ithow do you forget AI how does like an AIforget me things like what>> there's no pruning>> yeah and like>> of salience>> how do you think about the world withrespect to you know building sort of

00:22:35artificial memory constraints just likethe human And the forgetting part issuch an essential element like that isno longer relevant or that is notimportant at the moment.>> Mhm.>> We the AI systems don't really knowthat.>> And so when you pass in a bunch of thesememories into context, which is what alot of these companies do, turns out youget a lot of noise.>> Yes.>> And it tries to make these connectionsthat[laughter]>> there you Well, if if people want a realexaggerated case of not forgetting,there's an old book called the mind of aneonist like pneummonic device, the mindof a neonist by AJ Lura, which iseffectively an extended case study ofsomeone who never forgets. And uh thereare other ways to look at it. I thinkthere's a doc called Brainman aboutDaniel Dennett. I think I'm getting thatright.>> And uh>> the atheist.Uh, you know what the Dennett I might bemixing it up with the philosopher whopassed away, but it's something veryclose to that. People can look upBraymond British.>> I taught I taught George yesterday aboutSavant syndrome. You know what this is?>> Mhm.>> So, uh, there was a a famous case of aguy called Thomas McHugh, British guy.So, in his early years, he was in

00:23:50ayouth prison. Uh, was a bit of adisruptor, kind of a a hooligan typeguy. And, uh, he's in his 50s, early50s. And on the bathroom, he shitshimself so aggressively that he causesuh an anur, like a blood explosion inhis brain. And then as he's on thefloor, he's terrified that someone'sgoing to find him with his pants aroundhis ankles. So he tries to pull hispants up and causes another one to gooff. Completely like pops both sides ofhis brain. wakes up in the hospital afew days later and turns into aobsessive painter who can only speak inrhyme and paints between three or six ornine paintings at any one time. Paintsfor 19 hours a day and couldn't uh bearto think about suffering. So it sort ofsweep the the steps in front of him>> as he was like some Buddhist guy. Hejust had a total come to art moment. Uhbut yeah, shot himself so aggressivelythat he had acquired savant syndrome. Ithink if you're a great athlete, forexample, you got to you got to learn howto forget. You guys know about yips,like in baseball and other places. So,it turns out, you know,>> it's like typically, you know, you makean error or you you do something>> egregiously wrong in sports, everybody'swatching,

00:25:05>> right?>> And then you you're sort of had thisphantom reaction or whatever and thenthat continuously [clears throat]happens. And yips is a is>> is like somebody throwing that ball andyou know there's some famous playersthat have dealt with this problem andturns out>> you know you got to forget.>> Yeah.>> You got to forget.>> It's like a conditioned hesitancy orflinch orchininvoluntary potential reaction. But I'mnot quite sure how how it relates to youknow the the memory aspect of it.Ultimately,when you're when you're a great athlete,you watch a game tape afterwards, you'relike, "Okay, I I process it." And thenyou have to discard that.>> You learn from it, you move on. Do youguys see the Mark Andre stuff about>> retarding? [ __ ] maxing.>> Y>> that I think component wise, I asked Iasked I asked Hubman, [laughter]>> how many times does that word go?>> Hubman if he's personally threatened bythe [ __ ] maxing movement.>> What do you say?>> I think he is. I think [laughter] hepartially is. his entire career has beenbuilt on anti- [ __ ] maxing>> and there's a lot of these people whohave like you know they they they have aset of context I don't know why I referto everything like this but um and thenthey they sort of keep it around butit's super valuable to discard some ofthat stuff because ultimately

00:26:22none ofthat really matters I think Sam Harrisall this stuff go>> no I think it was it was just reallyinteresting the present matters the most>> people tend to focus on the future a lotmore anxiety, the worries or whateverand then they marry that with the past.And I think this is this is one of thethings I personally am like how do Ilive in the moment, think about whatmatters and focus on a few thingsfrom my experience.>> Exactly. But you learn from it, but youdon't dwell on it. You don't ruminate onit. You don't I think people I had to Ihad to move neighborhoods from a breakupbecause every time I walked around I canviv I could vividly feel the momentsthat occurred in that place>> from a a coffee shop to I don't knowlike a flower shop a dog that youregularly see>> I walk in a restaurant I'm like I satthere you know this person was next tome I knew exactly what we talked out.>> Mhm.>> I knew exactly how that moment ended.>> And [clears throat] I could replay thatevery single time I took another step.>> Dude, one of the best stories I've heardabout this is from Alander Boton, andhe's describing being in Paris, and it'sa

00:27:37early summer day, beautiful weatheroutside, a little cloudy, a little bitof sun, and it's sort of late afternoon,classic European fashion. This Frenchcouple are sat around a small table, rotiron chairs, and they've got a couple ofespressos, and they're just so deeply inlove. young couple sort of maybe mid20ssomething like that. He's got this line.He says, "I looked at them and realizedthat this beautiful memory would be oneof the greatest sources of pain to oneof these people if the relationship everended.>> It's strange that this thing that at thetime is really, really wonderful,>> right,>> actually becomes the thing that's kindof the I'm never going to Paris again.I'm [ __ ] moving to Rome or whateverit is because I need to totally changemy context." And that's also the samewhen it comes to phones, right? I Itried to stop using my phone and thisstill kind of works. I just changed thepocket that I put it in because Irealized that for an entire decade I'dhad my phone in my right pocket and likea speed shooter withdrawing his firearm.I would just put mindlessly put my handin my pocket. The number of times that Ipulled my wallet out when I changed itto look at my wallet. It's just habitujust this obsessive sort of routine.>> You guys know about this uh phantomvibrations. So, it turns out people havetheir phone on their pocket, right? Andum I went to a meditation

00:28:52retreatand um no phones, just meditation. And Ifelt vibrations. I didn't even have myphone in my pocket.>> Do you have a vibrator?[laughter]>> Two of them.>> There we go. There we go.>> That might have been my dildo.>> Um but no one likes>> We don't call that a meditation retreatwhere I'm from.>> Fair enough. [laughter]>> What is body blue called?>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. True.>> Tuesday. It was really interesting andit turns out I Googled it. Turns outthat's actually a real thing. Peoplefeel phantom vibrations from theirphone. You can go check it out. And Iwas like, "Wow, your body is so tuned tothis over>> every time you get a notification, everytime you get whatever." And most peoplehave their phone on silent now. So thevibration's really like a thing with thehaptics.>> You pavlovianly programmed yourself>> pretty much>> to expect this thing to happen. So likethis this sort of device is now apotential part of your the way that yousort of feel and understand the world inthis case kind of like a a touch typesense but it was remarkable and I I wentdown the rabbit hole and I looked at itand I was like wow this is not just me>> there's so many individuals>> it like you said if you um if I move myphone in my the other pocket the otherone will completely vibrate>> my wallet's

00:30:07going to be vibrating>> yeah [laughter] I mean for some peoplethat might be a wow Now, before wecontinue, most people in their 30s arestill training hard. Their protein isdialed in. They sleep better than theydid in their 20s. Discipline is not theissue, but recovery feels somewhatdifferent. Strength gains take a littlelonger. The margin for error starts toshrink. And that is why I'm such a hugefan of timeline. You see, mitochondriaare the energy producers inside of yourmuscle cells. As they weaken with age,your ability to generate power andrecover effectively changes. even ifyour habits stay strong. Mitoure fromtimeline contains the only clinicallyvalidated form of urethylene A used inhuman trials. It promotes mphagy whichis your body's natural process forclearing out damaged mitochondria andrenewing healthy ones. In studies, thissupported mitochondrial function andmuscle strength in older adults. It'snot about pushing harder. It's aboutactually supporting the cellularmachinery underneath your training. Ifyou care about staying strong into your30s, 40s, and 50s and beyond, this isfoundational. Best of all, there is a30-day money back guarantee, plus freeshipping in the US, and they shipinternationally. And right now, you canget up to 20% off by going to the linkin the description below or heading totimeline.com/modernwisdomand using the code modernwisdom atcheckout. That's

00:31:22timeline.com/modernwisdomand modernwisdom at checkout. to play umto play devil's advocate on the wholethe ability to remember everything beinga bad idea. I think a lot of theseconversations rather than a light switchit's more>> dimmer and different people differentoccasions it will be good and bad for>> cuz a lot of people look at us beingable to remember everything now verysimilar to when writing came along. Sobefore writing we couldn't store anyinformation down. So that completelychanged us. But I always think of So doyou guys know um I've forgotten the nameof G um Grenell Tower in the UK. Haveyou heard about what Grenell Tower is?So it's it's kind of it's one of thebiggest um tragedies that's everhappened in the UK where a councilestate which will be the equivalent ofyour projects um was poorly designed seton fire.>> Can you get a photo of it up?>> Loads of people Grandfell Tower. loadsof people um burned alive in it and itwas a huge like government inquiry. Howare we going to fix it? What were wegoing to change about it? And what wasthe crazy thing about the day was thatas this building was on fire kind oflike 9/11,>> a baby was picked up on the news wasdropped from the top floor. Look atthat.>> So a

00:32:37baby was picked up from the topfloor and dropped and somebody caught itand it was this kind of miracle in thisamaz like horrific day that happened>> and it got reported everywhere. Therewas about five different eyewitnessesand about 6 months later after theemotion of the event settled down a fewphysicists started [snorts] looking atit and going well hold on that baby at ahundreds of feet in the air if we justran the math here it would justdisintegrate on the catch and as soon asthey started to inquire like theeyewitness testimony it was a completelyhallucinated memory. So on the one hand,we'll the ability to store memories willmean that we can't let go of certainthings, but it may also mean that we letgo of complete fictions that we'retelling ourselves that never happened orthat we would invent them as well,right? Because if you're Tim, yourrecollection of the flames is, you know,in 4K, but the mirage of a baby beingthrown out, you know, the terminalvelocity of a cat is non fatal.>> What do you mean? The I can't say it anyother way.>> [laughter]>> There there's only one if if I drop acat from any distance.>> Yes.>> It's the speed that it reaches when ithits the ground>> is exactly>> on average is

00:33:52non fatal.>> So it doesn't>> I'm going to I'm not I'm going to justraise [laughter] an eyebrow.>> Ask Ch. A cat's terminal velocitydepends on its size body position. Yeah.Whatever. Estimated terminal velocity isabout 60 mph. Some studies and veterananalysis place it between Okay. So seelook see depends on posture. So ifyou've got a cat>> around 5 to seven stories. Yeah. Okay. Imean that's higher up than I wouldexpect.>> Some cats survive because they reachterminal velocity, stop accelerating,relax, and then orient themselves forimpact.>> And look, I'm not Look, it's it's tryingto caveat like basically am I okay tothrow a cat out of a window? That's whatchat thinks I'm doing.>> Now, this is one of those cases whensomebody's like, you know, when peopledie, they release DMT from their brains.And I'm like, how would you know thatthough? Like who which familiesconsented to have some science be like Iknow this is a hard moment but let melike tap your grandma's brain and[laughter] this is like>> the terminal velocity of a cat.>> No but I'm saying I injuries oftenincrease up to around five to sevenstories like I just want seven storiesand wear in like Sierra Leone. They'relike okay let's take these 40 cats anddrop them>> just put it into one of those t-shirts>> 5 10 15>> t-shirt fireers that they Yeah. Yeah.t-shirt cannon that they've got in pullthat data from some>> Speaking of hallucinating, I just wantto fact check myself. Uh Daniel

00:35:07Te a M.>> Pilously close. All right. What did youbring to the table?>> Hallucinating is a really fascinatingsubject. So people talk about AIhallucinations.>> Now we're in my>> Oh, sorry. Sorry. Hold on. This is I'mWe're still going. The highest reliablydocumented fall survived by a cat isgenerally believed to be 32 stories.Sabrina in New York City 1987. She fellfrom the 32nd floor of a skyscraper.survived with a chipped tooth, collapsedlung, and minor chest injuries. Aftertreatment, she reportedly recoveredfully. Dude, telling you, terminalvelocity of a cat, non fatal. They'reable to slow themselves down, right?Effectively,>> like a parachute is I [laughter] mean, Imean, they're not flying squirrels.>> Wow.>> Wow.>> This is remarkable.>> What did I get you with the other day?Uh, it was when we were talking aboutthe fact that if uh if a man doesn'thave a girlfriend, the way that hebehaves between 7:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m.at night can only be destructive.>> Yeah.>> And uh I told a friend about this and>> unless there's the internet.>> Well, even with the internet, it's stilldestructive, right? Cuz you're justembedding bad habits and doom scrollingand it's all>> self-destructive, I suppose. However,less on>> I asked I asked a friend about this andhe said, "Yeah, so my my my buddy wassingle and I'm in a relationship and uhapparently at like 8:30 p.m. at night,he would just receive photos of hisfriend headstanding just like

00:36:22selfies ofhim doing headstands." [laughter]>> What What could go wrong?>> Yeah. Yeah. All right, Nav, what haveyou brought? Come on, give me some Giveme some hallucination thing is reallyfascinating. People have this debate onAI hallucinations and there's a bunch ofthese topics that have written in AndreKarpathy has written a bunch of thisstuff and um turns out you know humanshallucinate as well almost all thefeatures of AI today that exist um theyexist in humans in some way shape orform and people are often um reallybaffled by it right they they hate thehallucinations I think I think of themas more of like just a replication ofthe human mind and how it works andturns out people hallucinate memoriesall the time people manipulate memories.In fact, if you look at things in thepast,you're effectively removingyou you you remember often fond memoriesor really painful stuff. The middle kindof fades away often times. I'm curiousto get your thoughts on this, Tim, aboutlike I think about this a lot becausefor our product, we have to like makesure these things are low and context isthere. what you do.>> We're building kind of um you know,today the iPhone is kind of a when youlook at it, when you go for a glance,people always tap on apps and you haveto go and pull whatever you need toknow. Um we're kind of building

00:37:38a alayer on on devices that is kind of umglancible information directly on yourhome screen that's entirely processed byAI. What you might want to know rightnow or things might be important to you.And the idea of intelligence today ex asit exists it's much more I'm going to goask it a question create this giantprompt do all this stuff and you knowbasically you have to do the heavylifting where we try to do the heavylifting for you by making thatpresentation layer directly on your homescreen that sort of understands what'shappening already in the background andsurfaces it when you need to know it. Soit's kind of an agentic home screen foryour iPhone. Turns out the iPhone homescreen hasn't changed in 20 years.>> You're roughly using the same device,the same thing.>> Widgets, I guess.>> Yeah. And they're underutilized. I thinkwe use them in a creative way.>> And so, and so, um, like, you know,we're not going to go, we're like twopeople, three people. So, we can'treally build a device. We can't reallyinvest hardcore. So, we have to operatein the application layer and utilize allthe things that are affordances that theOS exposes to us as developers. So, um,creatively, we we sort of, um, buildthis experience, and we're

00:38:53a few weeksold, pretty awesome. But it's been somuch fun to be able to think about theway that ambient AI will really work.>> Imagine you go into a room, there's ascreen, has presence detection, knowswho you are, what you might want to seeor know or do. If you wake up in themorning, these are the things that willkind of light up over time. And so likethis stuff might be in your lifepersistently if you want to with yourpermission.>> Have you thought about what to call it?It feels like sort of context dependent.>> Ambient is good.>> Ambient AI lovely Jordy as well. AI>> ambient AI. [laughter]>> AI we need to but I think I don't knowif the terminology is there. You know itturns out all the terminology thatexists in the past right? You know thehashtags of Twitter and whatnot are ininvented by their users and people arelike oh we should call it that.>> Bottom up not top down.>> Yeah. We're still waiting for a [ __ ]name for this series on the podcast.>> Do do you think the future userinterfaces are the glasses thateverybody predicts? Cuz my I wasthinking the other day as somebody whohas zero experience in designinghardware or products that the I thinkthe future's probably the AirPod casewhere you put the AirPods in. And Iheard I saw a tweet the other day thatApple have just patented cameras at theedge of the AirPods.

00:40:08So it couldfeasibly pick up the visual informationhere. And then with this little box thatyou have, it could be you could bespeaking to this device. You could evenhave like a little signal receiver,right?>> Yeah. So, we're not always on thesescreens. We just had the little AirPodcase ears in and then the box here.>> One of the problems you have with thethe hardware is that you need someprocessing power that's outside of it.That was the the hardcore um I mean, youhad an Apple Vision Pro before you sentit back.>> Yes.>> Um and you need if you're going to havesomething on your face or somethingthat's a wearable, you need to thinkabout ergonomics and weight. And thatmeans you need to send the processingoff to a different a different location.I don't know. I mean, you're right that>> VR is really not delivered. I think Ithere's always it's going to the nextthing we're going to wait for the moreit we comfortable the slim line down orwhatever>> get there.>> You think?>> Yeah.>> How long?>> Uh until what? What would be a good likenot quite touring test? It's not>> okay. So like the the sort of level ofpenetration that we've seen with>> Now we're [laughter] talking.with AI or with like pick any any sortof normal device but AI AI>> name your podcast>> yeah depth of p penetration>> new [laughter] new series>> very shallow very shallow um why though

00:41:24>> like that I don't know like a half abillion or a billion users of uh eitherone product or a category of productsthat has something to do with>> and that that type of mass adoption isis a high bar but I would say getting tothe point where people actually enjoy.Let's just call it

00:41:44thousands of people spending hours a dayusing some type of light lightweight VRAI strongly AI native system>> 3 years>> maybe less. I've seen some [ __ ] that'smade by Meta that blew my [ __ ] mindto their next after the next uh set ofglasses and that was like absolutelywild to be able to see that. It's stillthey're still clunky and dorky, right?But they'll over the time that they'rebuilding this out to get it down to theform factor that you need. But I meanthese things where those things are like>> they're really good. The best thingabout those not an ad. Um, best thingabout those is the fact that you cantake a photo or a video without usingyour phone.>> You know, there's that famous uh video,was it? Uh, the Shond Deise on NewYear's Eve, maybe 2023. And I swear it'sjust this street of people and all youcan see, the entire thing is just phonescreens from behind,>> right? Looking at the thing you'resupposed to be looking at. Just phonescreens,>> man. Ridiculous.>> Well, I would have you heard about me atthe Lou? Have I told you this story? Um,so I had these on at the Lou in Parisbeing a sophisticated individual that Iam. So I had these on and everybody wasjust looking at people's feet under the

00:43:00under the bathroom stalls.>> George collects George collects feetfake. So that's uh>> you can you can you can buy them.>> Um, it's no it's no longer a permit. Youcan't really have eye contact withpeople in the western culture becauseit's like a whatever. So people arealways looking down on their feet>> and that's where George comes in.>> Here it [laughter] is. So, I had thisexperience at the Mona Lisa in the Lou.So, everybody was there with theirphones taking a photo, but I had theseglasses on. But the problem is becausethe Mona Lisa is so small and I'm so farback. My girlfriend now has a photo ofme. So, there's loads of people taking aphoto of the Mona Lisa and then there'sme with my glasses in the air.[laughter]>> I'll I'll get the photo out of you. It'shorrific. It's horrific.>> It is nice though to be able to recordsomething without taking yourself out ofthe moment. And I think just that, yes,you know, the oh, I don't like thebattery life or this thing or they'restill a little bit clunky or I don'tusually wear glasses or whatever. Like,I get it. I get it. I get it. But theopportunity to be able to just take aphoto or a video without having to feellike, oh, I'm back on this screen that Ihate. I'm back in this digitalenvironment that kind of just compressesmy memory down into one time of me beingon this screen. Most people don'trealize how much being dehydratedimpacts their performance. Which is whyfor the last 5 years I've started prettymuch every morning with Element. Element

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00:45:01>> [snorts]>> Do you think you would feel better orworse after 6 months of not being ableto take photos or video of anything>> other than like okay you need to take aphotobusiness card or a scan for>> like business purposes? Fine.>> I for me taking photos doesn't get inthe way of my life anywhere near as muchas just the ambient pinging andnavigating of of the digital deviceitself. the photos. I'm in and out. I Ihave seen some marathon photo sessionsbeing taken uh at sunset. I went to umuh somewhere on Long Island. I can'tquite remember where. Uhthere was a beautiful sunset happeningover a lake and15, 16, 17 year old skull group. It waslike it was a endurance sport of phototaking. I'm okay. That's something else.Like that's kind of almost pathological,but for me it's I don't know. What aboutyou? Do you think it would make a marketdifference to your life if you couldn'ttake photos or videos for six months?>> I think it's a useful thought exercise.Uh I would suspect it would be better. Imean I have not had any>> says the photographic memory.>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Yeah.>> Damn. Perfect.

00:46:17>> I I can train people to have bettervisual memory.>> Okay. Can we do it?>> What was that? Can you>> It's not like a, you know, it's not likean O Pearlman like 60sec bang, you know.It's not one of those.>> But what's the like what's the paro umlike basics to to get better at a visualmemory>> start producing. So I would have peopleto get a book like drawing with theright side of the brain which is a bitof a misnomer in the way that itlateralizes things you knowhemispherically butif you practice for instance this is onetool in the toolkit right practicedrawing and for instance right if I hada flower and a vase on this table whichwould be not the most compelling way toget someone to draw but we were allpracticing drawing what you would noticewith most people is that they look atthe flower, they go down to draw it andthey start drawing their mental conceptof a flower, they're not actuallyreferring>> to the thing in front of them. And thenthere are different tricks you coulduse. For instance, if even right now aswe sit in Austin, Texas, bright outside,could have you look at a tree or a busharound here, sit down, I'd be like,"Okay, draw that, but I want you to onlystart

00:47:32with the black parts." parts andyou'd be like, "But it's a bright day.It's a green thing." I'm like,>> "Look again.">> And you'd be like, "Oh [ __ ] there areactually black parts. Okay, we'll startwith that.">> And as you start to do that or dependingon where you are, it's like when mostpeople walk through say, I mean, inAustin, it's easy cuz it's like cedartree, juniper ash, oak, like that's it.I mean, I'm being a little facicious,but there's not as much tree diversityas in other places. But if all you seeis quote unquote trees, it's like, okay,well, let me just teach you. It's alsosubject dependent, right? Like the sixmost common trees in upstate New York,Austin, wherever it might be. And all ofa sudden, instead of just seeing trees,you start to differentiate,>> right? So all of those, it's partiallyvisual acuity dependent. It's partiallyattentionally dependent so that you'rereferencing something as opposed toreferring to your concept of tree,table, person, whatever it might be.>> And then there's kind of a labeldependency, right? How fine tuned orfine sliced is your ability within agiven domain, right? So, if you weredoing like live gesture drawing, which Ithink is a great way to practicedrawing,

00:48:47and there are a number ofplaces around Austin and a lot of placeswhere you can do live gesture drawing,you'd have, you know, a model in frontof the room. It's not always going to bea hot naked chick. I hate to break it toyou guys. Sometimes it's going to be[laughter] like obese naked dude, butthat's fine. And they would start withsay five minute poses or they mightstart with like one minute poses.Typically, they'd start with like veryshort poses. So you can't over analyzeor intellectualize what you are doing.You have to keep your hand moving andthen they would go to longer and longerheld poses and uh you'd be shocked howmuch your visual memory improves if youdo that and you are not constantlyself-interrupting.>> Um so for me I mean I don't have anysocial media on this phone. I haven'tfor a couple of years. I do not thinkI've sacrificed one iota of quoteunquote being informed at all. Um, Idon't have vibrate on. I do not havering on. Um, which can produce somefunny like death spirals of peopletrying to like call one another, butneither person has the phone ringing.>> Um, but I also think, you know, there'sthere's some data to suggest that ifpeople have fewer mirrors in theirhomes, they are generally self-report asbeing happier. This is a mirror,>> right? This is the black mirror. So, Ijust I

00:50:02feel like that the less you lookat this thing, haven't run a study onthis, but I would bet a healthy chunk ofchange, I just think the less youinteract with this, the better.Especially given how prevalent fakefeeds are.>> It's just like the machine is anillusion. Most of it.>> Did you guys see that quote where um Ithink this philosoph forgot the name,but it was like man was never meant tohave a mirror.>> Self-reflection [clears throat]like that is is is detrimental in someways. We wouldn't have known what welooked like until Jared, can you findout when mirrors were invented? When was>> you know with water? You would know withwater.>> Yeah. You would go to a pond, forexample, and look at your face, forexample. They're their nature ornarcissist.>> This is why like if you look at animals,they're for a variety of reasons,obviously with intelligence or whatever,but they're often very baffled by their>> Yeah. presence in the mirror. And nowwe're looking at ourselves more oftenthan ever before. The selfie cameraseffectively changed the the dynamics ofeverything.>> During co there was something calledZoomface. There was a market increase inpeople getting cosmetic surgery becausethey were seeing themselves more becausethey were spending so many.>> Now there's there's AI filters on GoogleMeet and Zoom skin smoothing for myinterview.>> Exactly. You would add makeup

00:51:17orwhatever. Going back to your point aboutthe photographic memory thing. Do youguys ever play that?>> Which I don't have to be clear.[laughter] No. I No. I know I knowpeople who can do this and then 10minutes later read it back to you rightfrom memory. That is photographicmemory. I don't have that.>> Um you know that game you used to playas a kid when somebody would draw onyour back and you would have to figureout what they drew.>> Oh yeah. Yeah.>> Was actually a really interesting skillbuilding game because then you wouldhave to effectively imaginedifferent senses coming together. So youfeel what somebody's drawing whetherit's a flower or a mountain or a sun orwhatever. Always a penis. And if you'reexactly [laughter]always>> also a good podcast name.>> It's always a penis.

00:52:01>> Um that game was a remarkable.>> All roads lead to penis. Maybe prettymuch. I know you like the Roman Empire.Woods. Um I was just double checkingthen cuz uh about the history of themirror.>> Can I say how much I live? How you saydouble? I can't even [ __ ] say it.>> Double. That's God. It>> adds like at least seven. I keep>> Irish. I'm from I'm from Rodaleoriginally, Tim. And whenever you're inthe UK, it's a big tourist scene. You'dlove it. I'll take you there. You loveit. You love it. Okay. Um the mirror. Sothe mirror um that we we had thecreation of the mirror. But I as part ofAI coming bigger and bigger. I've beengoing down like old revolutions. So theindustrial revolution and theGuttingberg printing press revolution.So Gutenberg when he was creating theprinting press, he was originally tryingto create I think a mirror machine andaccidentally or ended up morphing intowhat became the printing press.>> What the hell is a mirror machine thatmakes mirrors?>> Yeah. So there you go. So uh around>> I don't know how you get from that tothe printing press.>> 1438 to 14>> You grind sand to make mirrors.[laughter]>> 39 Gutenberg was in Strasburg running apartnership to massproduce pilgrimmirrors. small polished metal badgesthat pilgrims pinned to their hats tocatch holy rays radiating from relicsthen carried home to benefit relatives.>> I like that idea.

00:53:16Um,>> but>> it's like a capacitor for religiousgoodwill.>> So, his capital was running out toappease investors. Guttenberg said hewould share a secret with them. Art andadventure research that was the basisfor his yet to be built printing press.>> That's cool.>> Wow. Nice. All right, Tim, you must havesome heaters. What have you brought fromhome? Show me something.>> Yeah, I've got something. This is anarticle. I've got a bunch of stuff, butI'm going to take kind of a slight leftturn. It's related to a lot of the stuffwe're talking about, but this caught myattention. It's an article called Ridingthe Leopard by Pachy McCormick,>> and it was it was it was sent to me. Ihad never read anything of his and thiswas sent to me a few days ago byuh someone adjacent to one of the top AItechnologists out there, which is partof what makes it interesting. So, I'lljust I'll I'll read a couple of sectionshere and then I want to get your senseand thoughts on things. So, what a weekto get to talk to room of technologypeople. This is a transcribe talk thatPaty gave.>> Sierra just raised at 15 billion.Anthropic crossed a 44 billion run

00:54:31rateand launched a new company with somehuge funds that have 1.5 billion todeploy blah blah blah blah. Opening eyedid the same thing but with fourbillion. Blah blah blah blah blah thisbillion that billion. All of whichraises an important question. Who givesa [ __ ] I mean that. Why do we care? Andthen it goes down and he says last nighta woman who reads my newsletter reachedout over subst. She said she'd beendiagnosed with stage four cancer. She'snow in remission. She'd been confrontedwith the question we've all been facing.What happens to human purpose when AIremoves scarcity? Uh or in her case, theneed to be productive. To answer it,this is the interesting part, right? Sheanalyzed more than 200 sci-fi books.Across all of the these books, by farthe most common thing left to solve forpost scarcity is meaning. 59% of bookswere about the search for meaning.Identity was next at 17%.Andthen it goes on and [gasps]you know there questions if newtechnology is so great why are so manypeople unhappy right if we have meansour ancestors couldn't have dreamed ofwhy is there a meaning crisis and thenit quotes Holocaust survivor VictorFrankle who wrote the truth is that asthe struggle for survival has subsidedthe question has emerged survival forwhat ever more people today have themeans to live but no meaning to live for

00:55:46and ultimately in the piece he ends uptalking about he really goes out therewell I would bet that dear PY has done afair amount of drugs but and that'smeant as a compliment Py if you hearthis uh but we get into non-duality weget into differentiation as moralobligation but I want to explain the theorigin of the name of the piece ridingthe leopard and it's from Joseph JosephCampbell and effectively he's talkingabout the hero's journey And I'll readtwo parts and then I'll stop. But thegoal of the hero trip down to the jewelpoint is to find those levels in thepsyche that open open and finally opento the mystery of yourself being Buddhaconsciousness or the Christ. That's thejourney. It's all about finding thatstill point in your mind wherecommitment drops away. The separatenessapparent in the world is secondary.Beyond that world of opposites is anunseen but experience unity and identityin us all. All right. Then this is thethe sort of wellspring of the name ofthe piece. You must return with thebliss and integrate it. The return isseeing the radiance everywhere. Allright. The goal is to live with godlikecomposure on the full rush of energylike Dionis riding the leopard withoutbeing torn to pieces. And it goes on.It's worth reading. It does get a littlesquirly uh later

00:57:02on, but what I'mcurious about is how you guys thinkabout if you do solving for meaningbecauseI tend to skew I wouldn't say dystopianbut hyper vigilant and have a lot ofconcern for the next 5 10 years. Uh notjust with AI but with the reaction toAI, right? So, so it's one thing if ifAI quote unquote takes jobs, but ifeveryone fears it is going to take jobs,there's a there are consequences of thatin of itself, right?>> But I'm wondering how you guys thinkabout or solve for meaning. And I'lljust add one more thing, which is umactually no, I'll save it. I'll parkthat for for for maybe injecting alittle later, but how do you guys thinkabout it? You know, one thing that comesto mind, this is the weirdest thing, bythe way, which is um I like aviation andthere's this is all going to connect,which is, you know, um turns outairplanes crash only because there'smultiple systems that go wrong,whatever. And and um the reason why thatcame to mind, Tim, was that um a captainhas a decision to make when somethingbad happens. How much do you communicatewhat happened to the passengers?

00:58:17>> Mhm.>> Like what do you say? Do you do you likehey you know we've lost hydraulics we'velost stuff you know multiple systems arewrong whatever completely transparentyou freaked people outum do you not share enough informationpeople are like oh what's going on whyis it turbulenthow does that marry to AI the people whoare building these systems how much dothey communicate what they think arethings that might change about thefuture things that might>> have a turbulent nature to them and thatis the delicate art which is you knowyou see Daario going on pods and sayingstuff likesoftware engineering solved you knowsoftware will be free um once thathappens you know you get these rippleeffects whatnot all the stuff happensand there's other people who are likemuch more optimistic about the worldwhich is like hey you know what everyand every revolution has created jobscertainly it has eliminated them butwe've progressed and so it's reallyfascinating I think this an interestingenvironment where people are like howmuch do you even as a a lot ofresearchers in San Francisco for examplereally believethat we've solved almost every problemroughly that that that the dominoes will

00:59:32fall very quickly from here on out ifyou have AI self-correctingself-ressearchingyou get to AGI what happens>> how do you solve personally how do youthink of it meaning if you do it this isnot a this is Not like a prejudgmenteither. I'm totally like what you don'tthink about meaning.>> You know,>> you crash capitalist.>> I tend not to I'm not a planner>> too much. You know, I I I think planningis is good in some sense, but also kindof detrimental. It occupies bandwidththat would otherwise be more useful fornow. I think people tend to live in thefuture a little bit more than they tendthey they should.>> Are you religious?>> What was that?>> Are any of you religious?>> No. No. I'd say I'm spiritual but notnecessarily, you know, organizedreligion or whatnot. I>> Welcome to Austin.>> Was [laughter] that>> Welcome to Austin.>> You know, I think>> we all do a bit of Scientology every nowand again, right?>> Do a bit of Scientology. You make itsound like we Yeah. Come on. Come on.>> We do a bit of Scientology.>> Do you guys see what Brian Johnsonposted yesterday? He was like, uh,prayer. He's talking about prayer andhe's like, I've been trying to pray moreand I don't know what prayer means andor I don't know what prayer is. If Briangoes full circle and ends up being aMormon again, that is gonna be>> There was a quote tweet exactly likethis. He's like, "Turns out the answer

01:00:48to everything is just Jesus Christ.">> Honestly, dude longevity or whatever.>> There was a funny comment. I I mean, Ithink Bri, that's an interesting onecoming from Brian. I would actually loveto talk to him about that more than alot of the biohacking given his history.>> Brian's a sweetie.>> All right. I mean, there was a I likeBrian. There was a there was a commentthough. They said, "Wait, let me getthis straight. [laughter] Brian leftMormonism. Now he's telling us we can'tdrink alcohol. We can't drink caffeine.[laughter]

01:01:15>> I thought that was pretty good. Um, butso what is what is this? And again, Idon't want to belabor this, but Iactually really want to know from youguys how you think if you think aboutit.>> I guess there's two there's a fewdifferent parts as I'm saying. I know alot of uber successful people who canlogic and debate their way through thelabyrinth of intellectuals around themwho have lots of money who are ready to[ __ ] jump off a cliff like that stuffdoesn't>> and do you think that that would bestopped if they had more meaning? Youthink the reason that they would jumpoff a cliff is because of their lack ofmeaning? I>> I think that that is one largecontributor>> and there's a difference like there yesthere's a loneliness epidemic butsolving for loneliness doesn't solve formeaning. So totally this is there'squite a lot of strands I'm going to likeunpack. Yeah.>> Umchess is an interesting one, right? Thatthe AI can beat chess. Uh any humanbeing at chess, but human beings stillplay chess. Magnus Carlson seems to havea very enjoyable time playing chess.>> Mhm.And go on.>> Well, there's an interesting anecdotethere that we this idea that oh, it'sgoing to take away everything. It'stherefore humans won't have any purpose.Yet it's seemingly better

01:02:30than everybodyat chess. Yet chess is still popular andpeople are still doing it.>> Mhm.>> The the big thing for me I mean>> and the question I'm asking is notwhether AI will remove meaning. It'smore like forget about let's we couldstrip AI out of completely. I'm justcurious like how you guys think about itif you do.>> So the I think we've discussed it whenI've been in this chair before but theidea of the precautionary principle. Sothe precautionary principle is humanbeings have a very very very very goodtime at forecasting problems>> but we have a very very difficult timeat forecasting the solutions that willcome because by definition if we had thesolution therefore there'd be no problembut you have all these billions of humanbeings that end up working on thisproblem. My inevitable thing is and it'sthis is where I feel it's a bit of astraw man argument. If this AI is sointelligent that it's replaced us alland it's this super god, you'll probablyfigure out how to get us meaning.>> You feel the argument is a little bitlogically>> George believes that benevolence comesalong with processing power.>> Yeah, I wouldn't make that laststatement myself. I know some peoplelike the sort of extremes of technooptimism would say that. But you knowthe point that PY makes in his piecetoo, he's like>> most of those arguments tend to at somepoint land on like we're going to curecancer and it's like

01:03:45well at this pointlike he's he's like there are 8.3roughly billion people on the planet whoare not going to die of cancer at leastnot in the near term and a lot of themare miserable. So it's like it doesn'tit might solve for certain biotech andhealth tech>> medical problems. Could it understandthe brain and then figure out why thesepeople are miserable?This is what I mean around I'm not evensuggesting this is going to be the case.There's just things that we can't evenforecast.>> I mean wonderful you've done a wonderfulBernie Sanders job of two or three timesnow not answering the question of[laughter] how to personally think aboutmeaning.>> I've said Scientology but you didn'twant to listen.>> That's not me. That's Tim.>> I've learned from over a thousandpodcast episodes that the easier youmake your health routine, the moreconsistent you'll be. It's like golf,right? You want to keep it simple andnot mix a bunch of pills. You want theeye of the tiger, not the DUI of thetiger. That's why I'm such a huge fan ofAG1. One scoop contains 75 vitamins,minerals, probiotics, and whole foodsource ingredients in a single dailydrink. And now they've taken it a stepfurther with AG1 NextGen, backed by fourclinical trials. And in those trials, itwas shown to fill common nutrient gaps,improve key nutrient levels in just 3months, and increase healthy gutbacteria by 10 times, even in people whoalready eat well. Gone are the days ofneeding to buy

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01:05:26How do you how do you guys um>> do you guys think this is an active>> process in people's minds?>> Yeah. Like do people really like thinkabout it in that realm or is it just abyproduct of existence in some sense?>> I think it were a natural byproduct ofexistence. I I look I I would just saymay maybe you see this maybe you don't.I mean you guys all interact on theinterwebs.the degree of like apathy and nihilismandforboding that I think is adjacent oroverlapping with acreeping dread of meaninglessness in myaudience over the last 5 years is[ __ ] terrifying.>> And do you think that AI is contributingto that?>> I think that technology and look, I'mnot saying technology is a bad thing.like ever since we were our ancestorsused some stick to fish out you know atermite mound it's like I bet ontechnology it's you know I've lived inthe bar for almost 20 years still veryactively involved with u different typesof technology but I do think that thereis the equivalent of digital poison anda lot of us are drip feeding it everyday so it's not necessarily AI I thinkAI like money power

01:06:42alcohol psychedelicsis an It's an amplifier. It's anaccelerant.>> Well, certainly most people'srelationship to technology now isnegative. I don't know many peopleperhaps except you who have aabove 80% positive interaction withtechnology. I I was on the the treadmillin the the gym the other day and I waslooking at um doing a little bit of boomscrolling on my phone and I had a screenin front of me here and then I had fivescreens here and then another fivescreens there and then there's a videowall that's got an advert here and I'mlike dude I'm supposed to be in the gymand I'm trying to listen to a podcast.I'm trying to listen to a funny podcastthat's just a safe space hang. I'm notsupposed to be thinking and I'm supposedto be tuned into this. And every singledifferent screen had subtitles on. Someof them had adverts on. This one's my600 pound life. That one's the news fromfrom New York City. This one's that. AndI'm like, dude, I can't. It's even Ihave to actively avoid screens now, evenif I choose to go screen free. So, yeah,I think most people's relationship to totechnology is proto negative. So whenthey think about if this gets more thatis more of the negative and it's alreadyremoved it for me a bit. I had a reallyinteresting conversation with NickBosram.

01:07:57So he did his second book whichis kind of like a spiritual sequel tosuper intelligence. What if things gowrong? And then the next one was what ifthings go right? What are the problemsof a solved world? And um he had thisreally interesting example where he saidbasically everything that we value inother humanscan be refined down to the fact that youneed to negotiate with a world that isscarce.Why do I like motivation in someoneelse? Why do I like discipline? Why do Ilike the ability to tell the truth? Whydo I like prudence? Why do I like goodjudgment? Because you need those thingsto be able to navigate through a worldwhich is going to apply pressure to you.Mhm.>> And if you remove that, so many of thetraits that we look for in other people,they may not be that creates a strange[gasps] weightlessness with all of thedifferent values that we've tended toprefer for all of human history becausewe've been negotiating with a worldthat's pushed up against us. And if wemove that out of the way, then what doesthat mean? So yeah, I think, dude, I Ithink the meaninglessness thing isgreat. George isinfuriatingly optimistic, which meansthat these conversations with him arealways, "If AI is that smart, why won'tit be benevolent enough to fix ourproblems?" That's kind of I guess your>> I'm not saying>> if if there had never been the if thetransformer had

01:09:12never made the leap tothe I guess GPT3 or 4the sort of social media and digitalenvironmentin and of itself just with more of alinear growth rate as opposed to moreexponential still would be a problemright>> it's just overwhelming>> so we like the AI conversation is justit sucks up all the [ __ ] oxygen inthe room. Do you know what I mean? So,it's like we can strip that out.>> Mhm.>> Uh as a thought exercise, right? I mean,I'm curious how you would answer it ifif and I mean, look, this is somethingI've been thinking about a lot becausemy audience, but also for me, for likemy family>> andu I've thought a lot about these debatesthat Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris havehad where Sam>> first one was a [ __ ] car crash>> where where Well, yeah. I mean, look,they've they've had car crashes, but oneof the takeaways for me was like, canany meaningful critical mass of humansfrom like first principles develop amoral and value code for themselves thatis secular,>> that is in any way gratifying,grounding, supportive in times of greatduress? Like,

01:10:27I feel like Sam would bemore on that side of things. And thenJordan's like, it's not going to happen,right? Like that is why people neededreligion>> because you have this out of the boxcertainty and in a world of>> um seemingly increasing incompincomprehensibility,>> right, where there is this>> uh inability to separate fact fromfiction. People need some type offoothold of certainty. And so I mean Ithink religion I mean it's it's I don'thave I don't have to think it. It'salready happening. But it's like hugeresurgence in religion>> with Latin mass as well which is Latinmass is one of the if not the mostascendant uh attended uh religiousservices and it's a a service that'sentirely done in a language that nobodyin the audience speaks. And I wonderwhether what what that's doing is it'salmost bypassing people's ability toscrutinize it.>> Well, that's obviously not true andwell, you know, I can realize>> maybe they don't want to scrutinize it.>> That's the point. That's what I thinkthat what they're doing is they'repurposefully going, "Oh, maybe it's justthat it feels more archaic. It's moresteeped in history, etc., etc. Maybe themusic's better. I don't know.">> Um, but yeah, I I I I definitely get thesense that people are going to scrabblearound to try and reverse from firstprinciples.

01:11:43>> Yeah.>> How do I make myself feel good? Butthere is a an interesting question whichis if what we're bothered about is humanflourishing, humans feeling good,why not have a comforting delusion?Let's say that it's delusion. I'm notsaying that it is, but why not have acomforting delusion? Like if theoutcomes of religious people are morehappiness, more meaning, they livelonger, they've got better community,they've got better health, they've gotda da da da,>> suddenly seems very rational instead ofirrational. So this was what I learnedfrom Alex Okconor and it it is RichardDawkins speaking to Ayan Hersi Ali onstage and Ayan was supposed to be thefifth horsemen of the atheist apocalypsebut she couldn't make the meeting thatday>> and uh then is on stage talking toRichard and the audience is sort of halfher fans and half Richard's and she saidI wanted to take my own life not longago I I was really low and religionfound me Jesus found me or Christianityfound me. God found me and after thelowest moment that I had um I'm reallyreally happy to say that my mentalhealth's in a better place and I'mreligious>> and you know you get the sort ofsmattering of kind of like empatheticapplause around the room>> and Alex told me that Richard's almostimmediate response was

01:12:58yes but yes yesyes but do you really think that Jesusmoved the stone out of the way on thethird day of Arama and what you see is aguy who is playing a game of optimizingfor rationality whilst ignoringeffectiveness. And you go, how can yousay that it's anything but a positivewhen this person's life essentially wassaved by this thing?>> Mhm. And I it makes me and this is oneof the reasons I think that atheism isnot cool at the moment that it feels ina world that's increasingly bereft ofmeaning. It incre It feels like reallysterile and quite judgmental and quiteharsh and it makes me when I think aboutit I'm like I don't I don't it justdoesn't seem very nice to me and I'maware uh removing comforting delusions.Why should you allow someone to indulgein their silly fantasy?I'm like, bro, I I think we're gettingtoward the stage where comfortingdelusions are allowed because if not, Idon't know. So, maybe it is maybe it isMormonism.>> Do you guys um intellectuals often timesum get in this territory where they tryto use proof by counter example? So thatthey'll try to find one counter

01:14:13examplein something that you're saying and theneffectively void the whole thing. Mhm.It's a very common thing because this iswhat you do in a math setting oranything. And they they tend to do thatin kind of a religious setting as well.And it's like that's not applicablehere. [laughter] Just because XY X isnot true doesn't mean invalidates therest of it. Um and this is why peopletend to like, you know, I think RichardDawkins is like religion is a pick andchoose kind of buffet. You know, you canyou can go pick and believe insomething.>> He also did say that AI is uh sentient,right? Yeah.>> How old's Richard though now?>> 70s.>> '7s.>> I think as soon as anybody gets over 65,you got to give them a little bit ofleeway.>> Public breathing breathing room. Yeah.>> Whyhave you been around anybody over 65?>> Richard Dawkins.>> Yeah.>> Yeah. I was on stage with him. He saidthat he would consider tryingpsychedelics.>> I managed to get him to admit to that.That was fun.>> But yeah, I>> What do you guys think of that? TheRichard Dawkins play. I mean, if anybodywould go around and figure out if thereis sentience associated with AI, maybeRichard Dawkins might be an okay personto go and figure that out. I don't know.I don't know how much you guys, but I'mI'm curious to get your thoughts on whathe discovered or how he discovered it.>> Oh, he's way above my pay grade.

01:15:28I haveno idea. I would need people to definesentience. And also like the therewhenever we get into sentienceconsciousness, I'm like, let's justlet's make before we argue about whatGod does or doesn't like, let's defineGod similarly, right? I would just wantto make sure I understand those termsbecause once you get into likeintegrated information theory and allthis stuff, it's very easy to like getinto these weeds and then you're like 30pages into reading this and I don'tthink anyone quite defined what the [ __ ]they mean by so I don't know I don'tactually know the context.>> Yeah.>> But I certainly have no strong position.>> Same thing's kind of true with meaningthough. You know, I've read Bowmeister'spaper on meaning happiness that kind oflegendary one from 2010 I think it is.And uh hey they're good.the toothpaste.>> I don't I mean they're very tasty. Idon't know what's>> uh 15 milligs of caffeine and and sometasty [ __ ]>> Sorry if I'm completely off here. What?>> But part of me thinks that well foragain I hate the optimism.>> I hate to sound like I'm doing anaffiliate link for the beginning ofinfinity which I am. I'll post it in thelink [laughter]>> but problems are infinite.>> So even now is a great example. So AIwhich is first off we're having thishypothetical conversation about thishypothetical thing which I think couldhappen but it's completely hypothetical.But assuming the hypothetical is true,we first have the problem of

01:16:43well, ifthis AI is so smart, why can't it fixthis? Because those two things seemparadoxical.>> We need to want to fix it.>> Yeah. Which again, um, which is adifferent question. But if it is sosmart, why can't it fix it? Is the firstpoint. The second point is even now arewe not having quite a meaningfulconversation like about this problem?Like is this not an example where thishypothetical AI solved everything yet ithasn't solved meaning and we're nowconstantly talking about how we're goingto get more meaning for human? I don'tthink that the the problem isnecessarily that meaning would beimpossible to access, but that if youmake meaning harder to access, you endup with some pretty gnarly outcomes. Inthe same way as it's not impossible toeat healthily, but it is harder to notbe fat in a calorie dense, highprocessed food environment. And if youmake it a meaning oasis, a me it'ssparser to get to meaning, uh, then itmakes life harder for everybody to findthat. Can I ask a dumb question?>> Yeah.>> Is it how to open the toothpaste?>> I was I was watching you.>> Send them here. [laughter]>> Here we go.>> Back to the back to the factory. Let'stalk to this copack.>> Oh my god. Amazing.>> I I want I have another dumb questionwhich is how how do most people ornormal people think about meaning? Likewhat how do they define it? What is

01:17:58theunderlying element?>> I think I mean the way that like I don'tknow if I'm normal. probably prettyabnormal, but [laughter]I mean I mean I do think that likemeaning may be the wrong term to usebecause you can apply it to defining aterm. You could apply it to [snorts]>> was this conversation meaningless ormeaningful. Well, yeah, we talked abouta bunch of stuff that we is mutuallyintelligible. So like yeah, sure bydefinition it's meaningful, but I thinkwe could say purpose like people feelingthey have a purpose,>> right? there is a point to what they'redoing or their life in general, right?Is sort of how I would think. I just Ijust the

01:18:40uh I I mean that's that's if if I had toput in a placeholder, that's what Iwould>> Western society always attributes, youknow, when you go to a party,what do you do, Tim?>> What do you do? Like, you know, this isa canonical question that people ask.It's like,>> "Oh, what do I do?>> What do you do?" Like, I>> What do you do at a party? What do youdo when you're out?>> Yeah, you know,>> the cocktail party question.>> The cocktail party question. I I tend totry to not ask this question anymore,but I used to. And>> it's always funny.>> Say heroin on the dark web is usually>> There you go. I mean, that would be agood>> just amazing gray.>> They're like, "Okay,>> it's better than saying podcasting,>> but like that is>> pretty similar, actually. It's a[laughter] job. the attribute of uh ofof western society to a certain extentwith all the focus on productivity andlooking at your calendar and managingyour time and you know sort of goingfrom meeting to meeting to meeting andthen having a full schedule andorganizing you know a meet up month onemonth later with your friends andputting it on the calendar. It's so likefascinating because effectively a lot ofpeople treat it as allocating time>> and if they allocate time that's whatkind of we're people are trying to doand often

01:19:55times going back to this thereason why I asked what you do is a lotof the meaning elements for individualsis tied totheir craft>> their job their their sort oflivelihood. Is it possible to havemeaning without resistance? Because Iwas thinking about the chess examplethat you were talking about, but part ofthe reason that the game of chess ismeaningful is that you're meetingresistance. Even if the resistance is ofanother player and not the best playerin the world, that would be a computer.>> But part of that>> requires some sort of friction in thesystem. There's there's very few thingsthat I can think of that are meaningfulthat are also totally frictionless orjust there is no challenge in it. Goingback to this, like [snorts] think aboutrelationships.We made access to relationships kind ofless friction than ever. You get acatalog of individuals. Browse through,find the next person, onto the next.Wow. I mean, you've created sort of anabundant layer on what was previouslyscarce.>> No.>> And then you have Grinder, which ispostabundance.>> Postabundance. Yeah. There you go.[laughter]>> Have you guys heard about sniffies?>> No. No. I don't know what's>> it's like a new gay sex anonymous sexapp.

01:21:10>> Okay. How are they innovating onGrinder? What went wrong?>> This is what [laughter] I know cuz Ihave some friends.>> What were they serving? What were theyserving that the Grindup app wasn't?>> How do you spell that, by the way? Is it[laughter]>> exactly what you can I've got to endthis podcast.>> Match phones ping a second. Hold on.>> Match Group just put in $100 millioninto the app. Um and it's growing likecrazy. People don't talk about the Iused to have this thing that if one ofthe reasons why it was never discussedin parliament or never discussed inCongress um was who owns Pornhub what'sthe name uh name of the company is itMindGeek Canadian>> Mine Geek had whilst whilst the Congresswas talking about the monopoly thatGoogle had that Meta had mine had themost absurd monopoly of the pornographyindustry which you'd argue there's afree market solution that Only Fans camealong and good old Only Fans fixing thedemocratizing point.>> But another example is the dating apps.If you look at who owns all the datingapps, I'm pretty sure Match I'm prettysure they own Match, Tinder, Hinge. Idon't know if they>> No, no. Bumble's public.>> Okay, so Bumble's separate.>> Rya, maybe. Uh>> Rya's separate, too. Match Group ownseverything except for Rya and Bumble,right?>> It's crazy that they're allowed such amonopoly on what is now modern

01:22:26datingand nobody discusses it because it'ssort of icky. It's hard to def themarket's so difficult to define in somesense.>> Those apps are also really strugglingsaying recently that you Bumble is goingto have my AI avatar date your AI avatarand then it will feed that back up.>> Did you see there was an interview shejust did like last week or whatever andshe's like this is the end of the swipeera and Bumble's introducing this sortof AI matchmaker or whatever.>> Jared, you ever considered that youmight have a drinking problem? I don'tconsider a lot, Chris.>> Well, you drank an entire case ofAthletic Brewing and Coco last night.>> But they're non-alcoholic.>> And that's not a problem.>> Sorry, man. I I just kept chugging. Waitfor the regret to creep in. Neverhappened.>> See, most people like Jared don't wantto change what they drink. They justdon't want the next day to be a completewrite-off. And that is why I'm such ahuge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. Theymake the best NA brews on the planet.

01:23:29You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'sbestselling lineup at grocery or liquorstores near you. Or best option, get afull variety pack of four flavorsshipped direct to your door right now.Get 15% off your first online order bygoing to the link in the descriptionbelow or heading toathleticbwing.com/modernwisdomusing the code modernwisdom at checkout.That's athleticbwing.com/modwisdomat modernwisdism at checkout. Near beerterms and conditions apply. Athleticbrewing company fit for all times.Bottoms up.>> [laughter]

01:24:01>> But going back to your point Chris,which was the idea the capitalismremoves friction, right? Like the ideais that you have thisinvisible layer in society sort of thatis that is fixing supply and demand suchthat there's this equilibrium>> at all times>> and turns out that reduces frictionbecause accessibility I mean Door Dashyou can like I I can get an Amazondelivery in 15 30 minutes or whatever.>> You got a fancy dress outfit in lessthan an hour yesterday. Yeah, cuz that'swhat I do on a Sunday.>> Needed a costume. needed a costume[laughter] on these new apps.>> I mean, it was remarkable. I was>> I need a furry with a cape>> and then went straight on to Whistler orwhatever. It's Yeah, I was in I was inum I was in like a Carmel and I didn'thave a bathing suit because people weregoing to the pool or whatever. It waslike, "Oh, I can just Door Dash it>> in 30 minutes and somebody will bring mea bathing suit because I didn't have andthat's that's remarkable." And I thinkgoing back to this, it's like, yeah,obviously I think it reduces value ofthings when the the friction goes down.I do think a great example is uh WinstonChurchill. Um I posted this the otherday. Churchill's biography is so good.Like you go Jesus Christ did this man umthe big I think it's Andrew Roberts uh

01:25:16Churchill biography. First off, Jared,could you pull it up how many timesWinston Churchill nearly died? Heoutbeats a cat. Like the number of Ithink he almost drowns. He gets theterminal velocity of [laughter] he getshe gets run over. But Churchill used toand famously a sufferer of depression ashe called a black dog.>> He used to plant uh sorry he used to lay200 bricks per day for a a significantperiod of his life just to keep himselfbusy.>> What was he building with this 200bricks?>> Apparently apparently he wasn't actuallythat good. So the stories that theactual players came in afterwards but hewould always do Yeah, you can have alook. So here we go. like yeah hebattlefield dangers in Cuba, India,Sudan and South Africa escaped from yeahhe was he escaped from the bore prisonerwar camp frontline combat in World War Igot hit by a car>> believed he was preserved for a purposefelt he was walking with destiny>> well Winston Churchill famously saidwhen he was a I believe a teenager thatI will save Western civilization whichis up there with John D Rockefellersaying I will become the richest manever to exist called the shots but forevery Churchill for every Rockefellerthere's a thousand decades massivesurvival in Newcastle right All right.So, I I got in trouble, speaking of theUK, uh I got in trouble for comparingthe UK to where it would rank if it wasa state. And I thought that this was arelatively innocuous

01:26:31thing to saybecause me and George both [ __ ] on theUK quite a bit. You know, you're allowedto. You're allowed to. As immigrants,having moved from your own country,you're allowed to sort of cast a SP.Well, this is why I left, so to speak.We were the second in the world inmillionaire exits not long ago, secondonly to China, who's got, you know, like30 times the population or something.So, uh, I decided to post this chart andthis chart explains if the UK was astate where it would rank on the list.Here it is. If the UK were a US state,where would it rank among 50 states? So,life expectancy first, lowest homiciderate first. Lowest gun deaths first.Lowest prisoner population first.Healthc care coverage first. Paidmaternity leave first.>> Lot of high numbers.>> Statutory paid holiday first. Years ineducation first. Lowest road deathsfirst. Lowest drug deaths second.minimum wage third, pupil performancefifth, environmental performance fifth,human development index ninth, lowestobesity 10th, and GDP per capita 51st.>> Uh,>> what do you what do you attribute thatto?>> Well, I mean,>> 51st.>> Uh, the fact that it's 51st, the factthat the US just absolutely rules whenit comes to capitalism.>> You guys are like Floyd Mayweather.Would would most countries I know thatthe UK is not Europe, you know,

01:27:46Brexitis Brexit, but like would would otherwould countries in Western Europe alsolook like this in terms of GDP percapita? Probably, right? I I would guessso. Well, I mean, what people on theinternet got mad at me for is, well,these are stupid things to judge.Obviously, you've got the lowest gundeaths because you cucks gave up yourguns. Uh the paid maternity leavedoesn't matter when this thing thestatutory paid holiday is pointlessbecause the level of productivity theroad deaths are because you don't havebig enough roads or something. The drugdeaths don't matter because you've gotno cool drugs. The minimum like therewas there was basically an Americanexcuse for every single one of these. Uheven the lowest obesity. Um, and I waslike, it was just surprising to me cuzfor the most part, British people arevery prepared to laugh at Britain, veryprepared to point and we very Britishthing.>> We've I've done episode I've done entireepisodes on this is what's wrong andthis is what's wrong and this is what'swrong and this is what's wrong. But assoon as you begin to compare the US tothe UK and in some areas because oh thewhole joke here is that there's lots ofthings that we'reranking better than the US in apart fromone of the most important things whichis how much [ __ ] money we make.>> Uh

01:29:01and yeah they're selective but>> sing it.>> Huh?>> You can sing it if you want.>> Sing what? God save our gracious[laughter]king. God save us.>> Right. So,>> uh I just got in a lot of [ __ ] and I wassurprised. I thought that Americanswould be able to uh take this with a bitmore humility.>> I do tend to think the Americans>> also humility.[laughter]>> Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, lowest drug deathsis I mean like why>> America will be lowest obesity at somepoint very soon>> with the advent of GLPs and>> they're going to be someone I saw thisthing the other day that um read a truetide is going to be one of the mostsuccessful drugs in history>> for sure>> they're one of the most widely useddrugs.>> Uh Scott Galloway has the uh idea hesays it's the best America is the bestplace to earn money and Europe's thebest place to spend money.>> Yeah. Well, the UK is a wonderfulcountry to be poor in and a horriblecountry to be rich in. And America is agreat country to be rich in and ahorrible country to be poor in,>> which is kind of interesting. If the umthe value of the dollar goes up, it'sAmerican productivity, GD GDP orwhatever goes up, then it's Americans

01:30:17will go and spend it to Europe, right?And get the best value for the bang forthe buck or if you will.>> Yeah. I do I mean I I do think uh the UKis is is the greatest the country of alltime. I do think that's like a fact. Um,but America's America's going throughits golden age right now.>> Just we're living on borrowed time,mate. You know my position on this. Ithink that we're living on borrowedtime. And this is seen uh nowhere moreclearly than the arrests countries withthe most arrests for posting on socialmedia in 2023. United Kingdom 12,183uh coming in at nearly double secondplace which is Bellarus with 6,205.uh and Russia is down with 400, Chinawith 1500. Might be some reportingproblems in a couple of those countries,but uh that number which is from thetimes, it was a times [laughter]a great>> of social enforcement isn't returningthere to be part of [laughter]>> 12,000arrests for posting on social media in2023. And that number is from the Timeswith Freedom House uh stats. So that'slegit.>> Mhm.>> 12,183.And that was one of the most common. Howmany people uh like where would you rankif it was uh the number of people thathave been and I'm like also firstactually so>> yeah we have made some mistakes

01:31:32over theyears Alan Shuring>> Oscar Wild yeah>> not good we don't treat our gays well no>> we haven't>> Alan Carr's pretty good>> treated well yeah Douglas Murray treatedrelatively well>> I had this because I I I find now thatevery time you bring up some negativeabout the UK I'm going to bring upsomething positive to counteract it umlike the angel and the devil or thenorth the northeast and the northwestwhich is I was back home um in London,central London and I was walking aroundthese beautiful buildings in Londonand I used to live in a house that'solder than America>> and some of the architecture that existsin the UK like New York has some quitelike the New York City library isbeautiful. It feels like you guys havestolen that from us. And even the uh theStatue of Liberty is from France, right?>> But like a a lot of the architecture inthe US, my friend summarized it great,which is everything looks like the backentrance. SO EVEN THE FRONT [laughter]LOOKS LIKE WHAT would be the backentrance. And I feel as a Brit being inAmerica, like my parents have the mostbeautiful place in the world and I'maround this mess of a house where thepeople are just it's a lot morefunctional right now. But the

01:32:47UK is thearchitecture is stunning and you don'tmake buildings like that anymore.>> We're really grasping at [ __ ] strawsthough when we're talking about the AR.>> Big Ben's good. [laughter]>> Big Ben's good.>> That's the difference between the US andthe UK is that it feels that everythingin the US has or a lot of things in theUS I shall um fix has a functional name.So I was like why is it called JoshuaTree? It's like oh it's cuz it has a lotof Joshua trees or like you have TempStreet. Why is it 10th Street? Cuz it'snext to 9th Street and before 11thStreet. Whereas Big Ben, nobody reallyknows why it's called Big Ben. We thinkit was after some bloke called Ben, butit's not actually been,>> right? The big big Ben is the It's notthe actual clock, it's the bell that'sinside of it. I think>> have a look cuz I remember I went downbig rabbit hole and I couldn't find itout. Yeah,>> it's remarkable how if you think aboutit in the grander scheme of things,young how young America is. It's likewhat is it like a teenager>> maybe less or something with respect tocivilization or modern civilization andum turns out everything is kind ofwhereas if you were to create a blankslate of a country and now use the bestof whatever exists and maybe try tocreate what Dubai's done right in a waylike you think about

01:34:02Dubai from aninfrastructure standpoint it's justtotally like artificial>> yeah it's it's absolutely just plowedits way through the desert and said howdo we want to have our roads how do wewant to have ourI know that there's lots of uh roadaccidents that youcan be doing 70 mph and looking atGoogle Maps and you're 3 minutes fromyour destination which is in the middleof a builtup area. You're just likepounding it and then you peel off onthis perfectly modern designed fly overand then you're deposited outside of thefountains at the bottom of the Burge orwhatever. Uh so that's kind ofinteresting.>> Whereas if you drive in London it wouldtake you like 30 minutes. London's okay,but I mean once you've been to LA,everything feels>> totally [ __ ] unbelievable. [laughter]>> Well, I mean, you and I have chattedabout this before, but I'm justincreasingly bullish onneurom modulation, brain stimulation,and there was there was a piece in theNew York Times>> um could at home brain stimulationreduce psychiatry reliance on SSRIs. AndI think part of the framing challengearound and just to define terms here. Sobrain stimulation in this particularcase I believe in that New York Timespiece is referring to something calledTDCS where you can basically use I thinkit's TDCS

01:35:17where you can basically use a9volt battery. It's a headset that youcan wear at home and it's intended totreat depressive disorder.Andthen you have other types of neurommodulation. And I use that term becauseyou might not be stimulating. You mightnot be exciting something, you might beinhibiting something. So that wouldincludeuh TMS, which I've spent a lot of timewith. So transcranial magneticstimulation. So you're using magnetswith different targets depending on whatyou're trying to do. Anduh I think those are just it's the veryvery it's the model T of what's comingwith with neurom modulation. And I thinkthere's going to be a lot ofacceleration in the next2 years. I think it's going to move alot faster than people expect.>> How does it work?>> Well, so for instance, you might have uhin say my case, right? So what I figuredout took me my whole life to figure itout but a few years ago is that eventhough I hadkind of been diagnosed and diagnosedmyself prior to that as someone withsome type of depressive disorder uh Ithink that it was a combination

01:36:33of a fewthings. One was Lyme disease, which islike very much multiple times verifiedreal Lyme disease, not like chronicfatigue masquerading as Lyme diseasefrom Long Island, which is if you lookat the CDC map, the Center for DiseaseControl, it is like>> bullseye.>> The is the bullseye uh outbreak, punintended, because you sometimes get arash that looks like a bullseye.I think that a lot of psychiatricconditions are downstream of acuteinfections that then led to chronicneuroinflammation. That's taking us alittle further a field from the point Iwas going to make, which is you can usethese magnetic pulses. In the case ofsomething like accelerated TMS and in mycase, I realized that it was actuallyanxiety and rumination. So, acombination, the DSM constantly changesin terms of how you would diagnose thesethings. Psychiatry is kind of wheresurgery was like 300 years ago, I wouldsay. M>> right it's very early days but if I doan f fMRI right so you're getting thisimaging of the brain you identifytargets for sayanxiety like anxious target you caninhibit or excite depending on whatyou're trying to do a target with thesemagnetic pulses inter intermittent thetabursts is what it's called

01:37:48and it justfeels like a light tapping on your headthat's it it's very tolerable and In mycase, you might do, for instance, in thelatest round of what I've done,take something. It's a drug. So, youtake a neuroplasticity agent beforehand.And there are a lot of things that canincrease neuroplasticity, but in thiscase, it's a somewhat uh antiquatedmaybe antibiotic called descloer. So,you stick it in your mouth, you let itdissolve for an hour before the stems,and then you're doing 3 minutes on thehour or maybe even every half hour for10 stems. And that's it. And I got 3 tofour months of going from say a eight ornine out of like generalized anxiety andjust OCD, rumination to like a zero or aone.>> Wow.>> Different people. I mean, those are twodifferent lived experiences. and>> and then after 3 or 4 months it it>> starts to creep back in and then you cango get say a booster of some type and Iknow people with depression specificallythere's a lot more data on depression ofdifferent types who basically similarlygot taken from like I can't move I'm athome some people are cutting and they gofrom like again

01:39:03this I'm not a doctorI'm not giving medical advice and theseare anecdotes but there are alsopublished studies that people can lookinto there's a great scientist namedJonathan downer unfortunate name forsomeone looking working with someone indepression but amazing scientist dnpeople can look him up uh I think he'sat the University of Toronto>> and uh you see durability in some peopleincluding the the son of a friend ofmine 18 months>> so instead of 3 to four months you getlike 18 months and so you compare youstart to wonder it's like all right ifwe look at let's just say SSRIs whichare miraculous for some people But thegeneralchemical imbalance theory of depressionor anxiety is pretty much thoroughlydebunked at this point, right? You'renot depressed because you have lowserotonin levels by and large. And whenyou take pharmaceuticals, I'm sure it'strue with GLP1s. I don't think there's avery rarely a biological free lunch, butlet's put that aside. Uh withpsychiatric medications typically youhave offtarget effects, right? They'regoing to be side effects. They could besexual dysfunction. They could bewhatever. They're weight gain. There amillion different uh options and

01:40:18oftenthey stop working or people don't needthem anymore and then there's no planfor deprescribing and off-ramping thesepeople. So they just stay on forever,right? So the idea that you could useelectricity is super super superinteresting. Andum I think I'm hopeful that it willdisplace a lot ofthe blunt instrumentapproach to using overprescription.We'll see. I mean it's going to take alot of tech innovation which in thiscase AI>> Mhm. [clears throat]>> go team AI is going to accelerate thingsa lot. Certainly already seeing it>> at like a personal level. What's it likegoing from did you say a nine to a one?Yeah, like an eight or nine to a one.>> What's that like? Is like a feltinsomnia gone,>> right? Like instead of taking 30 to 60minutes to fall asleep, like lay downand 5 minutes later I'm asleep withoutany sleep medication.>> I mean, that alone is just it'simpossible to overstate the effect thathas on your daily life every day, right?>> Uheasier to get over just kind of thescrapes and bruises of life, right?Little issues. You basically for me itwas like I find it very useful

01:41:33like ifI'm using the toolkit of stoicism ormindfulness or whatever like it's a[ __ ] struggle right it's not nativeto my constitution [laughter]but after this like oh wow suddenly Ican meditate for 20 minutes and I feellike I've been doing it for years asopposed to constantly like>> slapping my monkey mind on the wristright so really tremendous and I I Iwhat we will see is that you can alsouse it I this is not that controversialbut for performance enhancement rightlike you canum I believe you can affect likehandedness trait hypnotizability likeyou can and it's not risk-free butcompared to a lot of the mech the themedications that you might get peoplefor these conditions the risk profile ispretty good. It's interesting that youcan have an intervention that makesother interventions more uh effective.>> So, if you can do some sort of TMS thing>> and that makes your traithypnotizability more, that means thatyou've now opened up the world ofhypnotism.>> Yeah. You're you're Exactly. So, you'rechoosing the right domino to tip overfirst,>> right?>> And I mean,>> it's not the time to get into a porn

01:42:48habit then straight after this. God, goddamn it, I just locked this in. and itbrings>> Whistler or Tickler or whatever it'scalled.>> Yeah,>> Tickler.>> Also a good podcast.>> Um, [laughter]>> this podcast is sponsored by Tickler[laughter]>> when I sit down for a good wank onPornhub with my athletic brew>> brewing company.>> Tech, [laughter]>> do you want a man to come around in twominutes?>> Man on man.>> Uh,[laughter] life and times Chris. Uh it alot of I mean a lot of what I thinkabout is just sequencing right likethere's a lot of stuff out there off therack that works kind of right but if youfigure out the right sequence like youcan suddenly this is the true withlanguage acquisition too like where mostof the mistakes are made I think is inthe sequencing and you just fix thesequencing you shuffle things a littlebit you put the right domino in frontand it makes a huge difference and alsothis is true with like psychedelics inthe sense that like golan who's at UN uhUC Berkeley. She used to be at Hopkins,but hersort of framework of reopening criticalwindows with the use of psychedelics isvery interesting. So, and undergroundfacilitators

01:44:04have known this for a longtime, but it's like the two or 3 weeksafter a psychedelic, which in this casewould include MDMA, although that's alonger conversation,you have the ability, and this couldextend to say stroke patients who aretrying to relearn motor control orspeaking things that>> typically is limited to a very short,relatively short window as a child,right? you can basically reopen themalleability to develop those thingsusing these drugs in the subsequent 2 to3 weeks. So for instance, if you've justdone a bunch of psychedelics, maybe avery bad time to suddenly do a bunch ofoverdosing on porn and and sort ofinstilling habits that you wouldotherwise maybe come and go, but in thiscase could really stick. Like yourPlay-Doh is has been warmed up in themicrowave. So, you want to be carefulabout those two or 3 weeks afterwards. Ithink that could also apply to TMSpotential.>> I did a a two-sided SGB at the start ofthis year. And the same thing is truefor that. It's>> like, hey man, you've got a window herewhere your nervous system is unusually>> uh absorbent.>> Yeah.>> So, treated with appropriate care.>> Yeah.>> That was wild though. That that SGB thatI heard,>> you should explain what that is maybe.>> Stella ganglen block.

01:45:19So um there is abundle of nerves on both sides of yourneck uh that are essentially running tothe rest of your nervous system and youcan get an ultrasound guided anestheticinjection that goes into it and itessentially shakes the etch sketch ofyour nervous system is a way to thinkabout it. It is a relatively hard resetand you do one side and then you doanother. You can't do them both togetherbecause it actually makes half of yourface and half of your throat go tosleep. So if you were to do both, Ithink that you you might die. Um youcertainly wouldn't be able to swallow.You can't do much stuff.>> So like problematic.>> You end up you end up with one side ofyour eye is sort of eyelids half closedand speaking is a little bit difficult.Anyway, I did one side one day, one sideon the other with Matt Cook at Bio BioReset, who's kind of the number one inAmerica for this. And um it wasfascinating. Really, really fascinatingexperience.>> Would you do it again?>> Uh I would. Yes.>> What were the benefits?Uh it was an interestingan interesting slate clean of somenervous system buildup. So justagitationsuh the sort of ambient buzzing that youoften have rumination reduced. Uh it was

01:46:34it was very interesting. But I think thethe thing that's always fascinating tome because you've got a felt sense ofhow this thing impacted you. And becauseour felt sense is so subject to did Isleep well? Am I in a good place withthis person? Have I got the you knowhow's business going?What's happening in my life? But whenyou see in data too and because I trackeverything with Whoop, it was a 30%increase in HRV.>> I was going to ask you about HIV.a 30% increase in HIV overnight and thatheld for I mean I'm what 3 4 months nowafter it started to tickle back down nowbut uh that held for a long time and uhresting heart rate also did the same notquite as much but it was basically a 30%change in HRV and that stuck about for awhile um and they do this it's aone-stop shop for uh PTSD in soldiersit's really aggressive uh interventionfor guys that are like super super superstruggling and it>> [sighs and gasps]>> It just gives you a little bit more roomto breathe. And I was I was interestedin it and I trust Matt, the guy that didit, so I was like, "Okay, you mentionedbefore um risks>> with the the the TMS type stuff. WhatWhat are some of the risks?">> Uh generally very low. I mean, I wouldsay that again, not a

01:47:49uh not a PhD ordoctor. Don't play one on the internet.So do your homework, talk to yourprofessionals. But uh my understandingis that well I can give you my personalexample right [snorts] uh occasionallyin the case with my target with my brain>> uh after the treatment you can havewhat's almost like a reboundexaggeration of symptoms for a shortperiod of time which is prettyunpleasant>> where you might have insomnia for a fewdays which I did I've had that twice>> and you've you've done this twice. No,I've done it probably five or six timesand it's it's not it has not worked 100%of the time which is very frustrating.It's part of the reason why and I'msupporting uh a nent brain stimulationlab here at UT Austin um gettinginvolved with a couple of the companiesbecause I want to like I actually knowthese machines and I've talked to thetechnicians and I've talked to thescientists and I'm like I can actuallybe very I think helpful here. So, I'mhoping to figure out how you can makethat much more reliable. It's also justpure self-interest, right? I want to beable to use this.>> And I also want to figure out how to getdurability out further, right? Insteadof three to four months, it's like,look, if it's one day every quarter likeand it goes from a nine to a one,fantastic. But if it only works once

01:49:04outof every four shots, then that sucks.>> Yeah.>> Uh in in in a lot of respects. So someof the side effects the insomnia that Imentioned uh in very very rare casespeople will get uh temporary tinidisthey'll get like a ringing>> uh these are these are all prettyuncommon uh and I should say that theusing this for [snorts] generalizedanxiety disorder OCD etc is very muchtip of the spear stuff. So the samplesize is not very large. The with thedepression there's much more data andyou can go on PubMed or elsewhere.Consensus app is another uh decent opoption if you want like an AI interface>> and look at the published papers. Umthey're right there for you. Umif you are like smacking down yoursympathetic nervous system. Okay, thisis the perfect place to talk about thison a p large podcast. Um,after my first effective TMS treatment,the first one that worked, I could notejaculate for like 2 weeks. And I[ __ ] lost it. You can imagine. I'mjust likeI'm like, is this a good news bad newssituation? Like, yeah, good news, you'renot as anxious. Bad news, you're nevergoing to ejaculate again. I was like,what the [ __ ] And the doctor's like,yeah,

01:50:19we've never seen that before. Iwas like, oh, fantastic. Uh buteventually mechanistically he was likeit could be a dosing problem where we'rebasically we dialed down the volume onyour sympathetic nervous system too muchbecause>> parasympathetic to get erect sympatheticto come>> yeah they say point and shootparasympathetic>> sympathetic damn>> yeah and I was like okay well maybe wetry a lower dose which I think is partof the reason why it didn't work for mebecause I try I was like hey if that wasat the time that was five days and I waslike>> I really didn't enjoy those two weeksSo, let's trylet's try two days. I'm a big fan of ajagling. [laughter]You know,>> sounds like we found the>> uh>> Yeah. Yeah. You need to get on Whistler.>> So, I need [laughter] to get>> tickler.>> Uh yeah.>> Uh my podcast is accepting sponsors.Tickler. Um so,>> then I tried two days, nothing. Right.Then I tried three days uh a few monthslater, nothing. Right. And then uheventually got back to 5 days, stillnothing.>> But then went back to adding the thedescarerian this plasticity agentbeforehand. one day boom and I was likeokay>> now that is when I became much more it'scalled the one it's just called one dayprotocol

01:51:35>> and Jonathan downer who I mentioned isone of the if not the sort of innovatorin the space behind that along with umDon vaugh and some other people butthat one day when that worked I was likenow this is interesting becausecurrentlythe insurers are slowly coming aroundbut all this stuff a lot of innovationstarts with people with money spendingway too much money.>> Right.>> Right. That's just the way it is. Right.That's true with electric cars. It'strue with Uber. It's true with a milliondifferent the the early generationiPhones, right? Didn't even copy andpaste. Are you [ __ ] kidding me?Right. Uh these early adopters who havemoney and they're willing to spend it.Like the accelerated TMS protocol, someof the early rounds that I did, it'slike all in 30 grand out of pocket. Imean, it's expensive.And when it got down to one day, I waslike, okay, now it's about reducing sortof unit cost and increasing throughputwith these devices. Because puttingaside the out-of- pocket cost,>> a lot of people, they cannot take 5 daysoff of work to do this.>> Y,>> but once you get it to one day, now I'mlike, okay, that just went from a verysmall sort of addressable

01:52:51patientpopulation to a much larger. still tooexpensive, but let's try to work ongetting it down. And that's just TMS,right? You have other things likefocused ultrasound that might beinteresting for different types ofaddiction, for instance, where you couldactually get enough penetration that youwould hit you could hit the nucleuscumbent and other anatomical structuresassociated with chemical dependence.It's like, okay, this is very, very,very interesting.>> Who's the best company in America forthis at the moment?>> I mean, there there are a couple ofreally good ones. Um the the two olderones are uh that have the most uh kindof time on the market are Brainswaywhich is uh out of Israel. Very goodmachines. Um it's a it's a publiclytraded company. Full disclosure I youknow invested in them when they werepublic traded company. Uh, Mag Venturehas a device as well which I've used andthen the company that I'm involved withis called AMPA and they that is thesmallest form factor and the peoplebehind it develop the one day protocol>> anduh I think their sort ofthe trainability of that device insteadof taking weeks or certainly instead oftaking weeks let's just say to train atechnician

01:54:06properly you can do it in afew hours and it's something that fitsin the trunk of a car like a Corolla asopposed to being the size of arefrigerator. And I think they're reallyotherwise it wouldn't be involved verywell positioned to finally scale thistreatment to millions of people insteadof a hand like a few thousand.>> Mhm. Um, so those like all three ofthose are on the market and the lowestcost would certainly be AMPA, but allthese devices eitherhealth>> um and we'll see. We'll see. I mean, Iam I'll beI mean, not just because I'm involvedbecause it took me a long time. I did a[ __ ] ton of due diligence. Um, I don'tthink a lot of folks don't realize likehow much due diligence I do before I putsomething in my newsletter or whatever.LikeI guess this is OCD like harnessed whenI am in full throttle>> being used very well. Wait, beingfriends with you is is highly useful insituations like this. In the same way Iwent to go and get LASIK>> in the UK. Uh, Ali Abdal, productivitydude, British guy, um,>> ex is a doctor, right? Was an MD or theequivalent of an MD, GP in the in

01:55:21theUK. And um I knew that he'd got LASIKand I was like, "No one's done moreresearch about who's the best uhobstitricianoperator in in all of the UK messagedAli and he's like, "Yeah, I spent threeweeks speaking to all of my friends anddoing all of the reviews and looking atthe the particular the particularmachines." I was like, "Okay, who wasthat?" And he introduced me and it'sfunny. This is good. I just get tospeedrun all of the work that you did.canary down the mine.>> I'm at the end of the guy in the humancentipede, but I'm benefiting.>> Yeah, [laughter]you want to be first in line.>> No, I'm I'm at the end, but it getsbetter progressively as it goes through.>> Yeah,>> that's cool, man. I'm I'm glad that it'sI'm glad that it's helped. It'sexciting.>> It's it it is exciting. I mean and Imean I think it's I think it's sayingsomething when you know as somebodywho's been so active in funding thescience related to psychedelics andpsychedelic assisted therapy since 2015that in the last 3 years I've donealmost almost no psychedelics. It's beenpurely focused on the neurom modulation.I think it's that important. Uh we'llsee because a lot for a lot of peoplelike psychedelics are nuclear power forthe psyche. Like you just they are notsuitable for

01:56:36all people. There areplenty of people I would carve out forexclusion from>> many times you end up with a Chernobylor a Fukushima.>> Yeah.>> Yeah. It's just it's it's a lotsquirrelier. It is u you need to bereally careful with that stuff. And ithas to just not being able to come.>> It has its place. Yeah. Can I zoom inmore on this? Yeah.>> What was that like at the end of a fewweeks? [laughter]You know, you said you know you said youwent from a nine to a one. Did you hit aminus seven?>> No. No, I didn't. I mean, I wasfantastic.>> I was pretty I was pretty Fukushima.>> Yeah, I was pretty [laughter]>> I was uh understandably concerned.>> Had you have known that it was going toend after two weeks, presumably youwould have just been the fear was thisis going to be>> forever. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So nowthe>> but you couldn't feel the anxiety.[laughter]>> But but but interesting interestinglyfor for like the every time it hasworked for me I've had that side effect.But now I know that there's an endpoint. So don't freak out>> and it's fine.>> Yeah. You just know that you're going toget a couple of really good weeks whereyou're kind of like a stallion.>> Babe, I can just, you know, don't worryabout me. [laughter]>> How do you um I had a question for you.You know, on on the other side of thespectrum, have you seen these devicesthat stimulate your vag

01:57:51nerve orwhatever? Yeah, I know. I know a lotabout>> them. What are your thoughts on those?Like>> most of them are bunk.>> Are they?>> Yeah. Uh there there's um scientist youmight want to have him on at some point.He's incredible. Uh named Kevin uhTracy. He is the most credible. He wrotea book called The Great Nerve. He's themost crediblepubliclyand not really u educating scientistcredible very highly published uhscientist who talks about this. Uh mostof thenon-invasive vag nerve stimulators orthat are purported to be Vegas nervestimulators don't don't actually hit itthe right way. Um and they're they'reneck based, right? And then there'searbased>> um the neck TBD but uh there are they'vebeen cleared FDA cleared for I thinkit's either migraines or clusterheadaches.>> Yeah.>> Some people seem to benefit. I had afriend who tripled his HRV using a neckbased device. I think it was either trueVega or it was the prescriptionequivalent of True Vega>> and it worked really well for him. Thiscan be pretty>> I' I've used them. I had a friend I wastalking to. I I suffer from migraines.

01:59:07Yeah.>> And um>> so I have to carry around medication allthe time and um somebody told me aboutthese things and they were like okay ithas all these benefits of like HRV youknow increase of HRV all sorts of stuff.It's a temporary state if you will butultimately>> you just use it daily. It's like a fewminutes in the morning a few minutes atnight.>> Yeah. It's kind of reset the nervoussystem. That's kind of the marketingterminology that they've been utilizing.>> Yeah. I mean really it'swhat it's doing is it's stimulating thevagus nerve which is really like twotransatlantic cables on either side.It's like 100 roughly 100,000 fibers oneither side>> and it it intervates>> everything just about>> organs, GI tract, etc. And when youstimulate it, you canumguess the right way to put it activateisn't quite right, but something calledthe inflammatory reflex.>> And so it can be applied to things likerheumatoid arthritis, differentautoimmune disorders, can be applied tosomething like asthma attacks. Um it'svery very very interesting. Um so itcould be worth looking into for you,right? The the neck based devices tendto also activate the superficial

02:00:22musclesof the face. So>> pulls your face down. It's>> depends how high you turn it up.>> Yeah, it depends on how high you turn itup, but it can be a littleuncomfortable. The earbased devices>> you use, you say you've used No, Isomebody recommended me the earbaseddevice.>> Most of the earbased devices are notactually in the right place.>> Got it.>> It needs to be very very very precise.Um there's it's called the Simba Koncha.It's going to be hard to see. It's righthere kind of where this fold is. at thebottom of that inside like right there.>> Most of the devices being sold on themarket, including devices that have lotsof fancy names and lots of fancyinstitutions on the website, they're notin the right place. And a [ __ ] ton ofmoney behind some of those companies.>> Yeah. A very few fibers make it to theear. Got it.>> Um I've got a couple of things. I had afew things sent to me. I had one that'sa handheld device with the two-prongongand you can kind of just stick it onlike you want>> just tase yourself.>> Yeah. like that. And then uh there's apair of headphones that have a lug thatcomes down and sits here. And umobviously that one's way way moreconvenient. But there's some weird stuffwith that. You've got to lubricate theend of the adapter because it needs tobe able to have quite a smooth surfaceto be able to So you have to change theagain

02:01:37Whistler. Uh you have to changethe little heads out on this thing andput that in. I I didn't do itconsistently enough to be able to saywhether or not it was effective. Yeah. Ithink I I think for for migraines it'sworth looking into.>> What's your uh migraine manifestation?Do you have aura with it?>> Oh my god. Yeah.>> Which one?>> Um what>> what do you mean which one?>> Alactory visual. It's visual.>> Visual.>> And it'll come on and I can I I've hadthese since I was 5 years old and peoplewere like the [ __ ] is going on? I Ididn't even know. And yeah, you getthese auras. It's like almost as umyou're on like an acid trip and everybit everything just looks blurry butmoving in in a weird way and then andthen after a while if you don't takemedication during that period um>> then it kicks in.>> Then it kicks in.>> What what do you take? N>> uh sumatript.>> Has one just kicked in?>> Yep.>> Oh [ __ ] Sorry.>> It's No, no, it's all good. It's I don'teven know. I think I I typically trackit with um it's either lighting.>> Yep. um it's environmental like weatherchanges weirdly enough or the lastelement of it is either I have caffeineor uh wine without any food>> right>> and it's it's really fascinating becauseyou know they they ask you to keep adiary of your day and to figure outretro

02:02:53retroactively what caused itthere's no other mechanic and it's sopeople don't know why people don't knowfor what reason people some people thinkit's autoimmune some people think it'snot and it's a fascinating Um, so I haveto carry medication all the time and Iwas recommended this.>> Yeah. This So the the prescriptionversion of True Vega spelled T R U V A Gis called Gamma Core.>> Got it.>> G- A M M A C R is FDA cleared in the USfor both acute treatment of migrainepain in adults and prevention ofmigraine episodic and chronic. Uh fewpractical points real the effectevidence is real but modest compared totop tier migraine medications like CGPinhibitors. uh appears to work best forpeople who treat attacks early, migrainewith aura, patients who want to reducemedication use,those who can't tolerate tryptoins andCGPS,>> right?>> Speaking of those devices, by the way,have you guys seen there's somecompanies that are being um now thatthere's sort of reinvention of inputinto computers. So, for example, lesskeyboards, more voice, more like naturaltypes of interactions with withtechnology and devices in general. Um,there are these devices that are comingout. One of my friends demoed this tome. I think Apple just acquired acompany where you just put sort of a asmall device

02:04:08that listens in this sortof region and um without you actuallysaying anything, it can detect umyou know as if you were talking.>> Makes sense. roughly. It's it'sremarkable and and um you can imagine alot of scenarios with this as astechnology and the input layers becomemuch more natural, much more umconversational. Um and you know, youdon't have these affordances to speakall the time where imagine that devicecan effectively read what you want tosay without you ever having to say it.>> Yeah.>> Um and it lives roughly in this region,can detect all this.>> Any idea why it's sat there to detect?Is it as if you're moving your mouth butnot talking?>> I'm not sure. Let let me let me justsidebar real quick. Uh>> just because I want to make a safetypoint. We're talking about the relativesafety profile of brain stimulation orneurom modulation with these devices.>> That does not mean anyone should DIYthis stuff. You can the brain factory onyour head.>> The bra the brain is incrediblysensitive. If you hit the wrong target,you can [ __ ] yourself up>> or make your symptoms a lot worse. So,do not DIY this. Go to a decent clinicfor people who want to explore

02:05:23it. Ihave no stake in any of these. Acaciaclinic in Sunnybell in California.Salience, which I think is in Dallas.They may have other locations. Uh OwenMure M UI R who's in New York. There area couple of clinics that I know havevery good reputations, but like workwith somebody who knows these. No 9 voltbattery and a one of those>> pads that people use for their abs.>> I was about to go home battery.[laughter]There's also it's not I don't thinkindicated for migraines. It's I'm prettysure it's specific to RA to rheumatoidarthritis, but Setpoint Medical has animplant about the size of a smallomega-3 that they It's like anoutpatient procedure in the neck andthen it just stimulates like twice a daythe Vegas nerve.>> No way. Yeah.>> That was on the front front. It was onthe front cover of the New York Timesthe day that I interviewed Kevin Tracywho was involved with the development ofthat device. Yeah.>> Wow. And so they implant it directlyinto your neck. Yeah.>> How do you recharge it? Induction.>> Uh I'm not sure exactly.>> Yeah. I mean it does get a lifetime.[laughter]>> It's magnetic charging on your neck.Could you imagine? only uh device thatkind of reads your

02:06:38thoughts. One thingyou you um discover as you get more intomeditation is just how sometimes yourthoughts aren't even you. Like theultimate example, even if you've notexperienced any form of meditation,would be like a song that's stuck inyour head.>> Yeah.>> I wonder how the device would differbetween a song that's stuck in your headand something that you actually want itto do. Cuz I remember a great meditationtechnique. I'm just imagining myruminating given a microphonein my ear.>> I think the distinction being thatthere's sort of this concept of mindreading and or expression of a thoughtand the expression of a thought istypically you know when you when you'restarting to speak it roughly you wouldhave to>> it's not purely like a thought reader insome sense you would have to have anintent associated with it. To going backto your previous point on devicesthough,>> my thesis is that the device that you'llprobably wear when you interact with AIor whatever if you want to has not beeninvented yet.>> Mhm.>> And it will have this combination ofinput output that is much more um lessvisible. Didn't Didn't OpenAI claim thatthey were going to have a three productor something? And obviously they've gotJohnny IV in the guy that made the theiPhone,

02:07:54the original iPhone. And>> then they bought his company which wascalled Yeah. IO. And then there was thisvery cool sexy video of him and Sam in atotally not fake bar somewhere>> having a conversation.>> Uh I think it'll be the AirPods.>> Yeah, they're they're actually buildinga phone apparently.>> Okay. Um, they said three differentthings and one of them is something thatno one's ever seen before, which makes alapel thing, a little button orsomething like that.>> The AirPod case makes the most amount ofsense cuz we're already using them.People wear them 24/7. The AirPods arewhat's that stat around if the AirPodwas a startup, it'd be like one of themost eighth in the world. Really? That'swhy just just that alone>> and half that's me contributing to umshould we talk about that? We've neverspoken about this. I've uh see if I blowit up.>> Going back to your three devices thing.I think there's probably one device thatisan affordance that's kind of listeningand or>> ask me your Wait, you were a raw dogthat took a deer like let's get rid ofthis [laughter]free advertising.>> There's this sort of one device thatprobably listens to input in somemechanic or or or tries to process whatyou want in possibly a new way. Thatcould be like a device that's kind ofhave a microphone

02:09:09or whatnot. There'sanother device where it's like a hertype situation where he's wearing thatearpiece and constantly speaking to it.>> And then maybe that third device is kindof this glancible world, right? Whereyou have this phone. Um, turns out now,you know, applications are becoming lesslike people are using chat GPT or clawedfor everything, right? Like you go, Iwant to set a timer. You can do that inchat GPT. You don't necessarily need adedicated app. Maybe you want one orwhatnot, but the idea of the appecosystembeing less valuable than it was beforegiven>> Elon's big on this, right? That you hethinks that all apps are going to goaway and your phone is just going tocreate whatever you need whenever youneed it.>> Roughly. Exactly. And and I thinkgenerally um today it's possible tobuild that type of device without havingthis ecosystem effect that was necessaryin the past. I wonder if that would openup uh a hole in the market because atthe moment the dominance has been prettytough despite the fact that Apple havekind of [ __ ] the bed a lot.>> You know, they the phones have reallystarted to peter out in terms of theprogress at least from what I notice asa user. You like, yeah, I can zoom in15x, I can zoom in 20x and at some pointit's like what? It's a slab of glass anda combination of things. Like

02:10:24what doyou do?It's a bit the screen's brighter orsharper or something, but it's lessnoticeable. You remember when it waswhat the iPhone 5 to the iPhone 12 andeach time it was a noticeable leapforward. Almost the same that's beenhappening with the the AI models, youknow, that it seems to have started toat least in terms of noticeable userexperience for me. It seems>> I think iOS gets worse every time Iupgrade. the the keyboard at the momentjust [ __ ] sucks.>> What I'm>> um But my but they do have an incrediblewar chest.>> So what do you think against a guy witha massive [laughter] pile of money?>> Well, I'm just what they can do is theycan buy companies. So I'm wondering Idon't know. You have any thoughts on whothey should buy? You know, there'sthere's a group of people that thinkthat Apple's like the smartest companybecause they've let the world sort ofplay itself out. People spending a lotof money and they're just waiting to seewhere it hits and then effectively um dowhat they do best, which is never enterthe market first.>> Yeah.>> But be the best.>> Yeah. Yeah.>> It's exactly what happened to>> cell phones or smartphones. Exactly whathappened to kind of AirPods. There's allthese some some wireless>> they did with the iPod too. iPod too.

02:11:39Umyeah, the iPod was the first element ofit, even the computer in some sense. Um>> plenty of MP3 players.>> So it's like they've saved all of thiscost for a capax.>> Um never spent anything like>> go forth and split test these productsfor us, my minions. Yeah, exactly. A tonof other companies.>> They effectively let others do the R&Dwork to a certain extent and then refinethat world potentially. And you know,>> there's an argument to be made that thatis a>> you don't need to be first, you justneed to be. They also make what 20billion per year from Google>> Google search for free.>> So Google keep going up and up and up.So yeah, they're not going to>> dabble with touching that which is why>> what we haven't discussed is how muchrevenue you contribute to Apple on anannual basis. I think I'm on my um17th AirPods. Um a lot>> because they're because they're aslippery bar of soap.>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] No, no,it's more I've had a few stolen. I' Idon't like having things on me as well,so I'll just like leave things. So, likethe amount of times I've left them atDeans, but one just a gift to theuniverse over and over again.>> And the most frustrating thing is to himis you can see where they all are.[laughter]>> So, there's one in particular right now

02:12:54that's in Cameroon and I can see wherehis house [laughter] is. Right. So, no,no, I still No, because I'm a sad littleman that I'm not willing to I'm notwilling to find a Cameroon to confrontthe man, but I am willing to press theplay sound button.>> Oh [laughter] my god.>> Do it at night while they're sleeping.>> Yes.>> Isn't there Isn't there a single AirPodthat's in the uh uh like WHO building?Yeah, that was that was K's AirPods thatwere in the WHO building. Yeah, just oneAirPod was in the single AirPod that hewas playing this sound through in theWHO building in New York City.>> There you go. It's just there right now.Oh, he's in Ghana. He's in Ghana.>> Oh,>> there we go.>> Eight minutes ago.>> Have you guys ever uh>> That's That's incredible. But what whata great I mean I never leave my housewithout my AirPods.>> This is why I think it's power user sucha power user.>> I keep sounding like a broken recordhere, but I assume the device is alittle little pod thing that we havenow. Headphones in, cameras in, but thenit's almost you could have a like aholographic screen, so people aren't onthese glass screens as much and you canmake it big, make it small. that feelsinevitable.>> I mean, there is rumor that the nextAirPods, like you said, do have visualthe cameras, and that's that's crazy ifyou think about it. You're walkingaround, there's sort of two spatiallyaware cameras around you.>> Well, it's kind of like

02:14:10uh what was it?Dark Knight Returns or Dark Knight Riseswhen they had the cell phon.Yeah.>> I mean, what do you think Apple's goingto do with that data? I don't understandhow they're going to do the wholeNeurolink thing that you mentioned ofthey will read your thoughts because ofthe fact that some thoughts I have Ididn't want to have. It wasn't me.There's this meditation technique I oncesat in which is it's a real cool one.>> So it sounds like you're pretty seriousin meditating.>> Yes. Yeah. Um it was originally to fightoff a skin condition and then it endedup Yeah. Gemini fixed that. So the storythere was>> I fix your>> syll thethat's uh non be fixed my>> is [laughter] here man>> sniffer gave me the syphil>> no um the I had a I had subatomicdriisitis for about 2 years>> subatomic suboric domteritis>> basically my face my face would breakout like red and I wouldn't want to gooutside the house so I spoke to a fewdifferent doctors a lot of themrecommended topical steroid creams uh alot of them said it was because ofstress so I got deep into meditation Istopped eating like so such little sugarthat I once flagged I once got diagnosedwith type 1 diabetes. Um which was acomplete false diagnosisone is pretty hard>> which is another side story but I won.Then when I

02:15:25was away I tracked my skinfor years and nothing would work.Nothing would work. So when I was awayon holiday I just uploaded the file toGemini and it just>> the file you mean a photo?>> Yeah. know all the photos that I haveand it just said, "Oh, just put niserolshampoo on your face.">> Oh wow.>> And it's never it's not had an issueever since.>> So it was fungal.>> Yes. So the biggest the biggestrecommendation I would give>> is ketoconazol for people who arewondering. Yeah.>> This for dandruff and I do it onceagain.>> This for dandruff.>> Uh it's also very effective for topicalfungal>> infection. I did it once every two weeksnow and it's completely>> [ __ ] crazy.>> It's completely gone. So anyrecommendation at home like a practicalthing would be just upload a photo ofyourself to Gemini or chat GPT and justsay hey based off what you can see withmy skin recommend me moisturizersrecommend me everything and it'll bebetter than do you know anything you'vedone before>> what do you use what do you use Geminifor versus other models>> I I'm I'm a an LLM [ __ ] Tim like I I[laughter] shift>> he's like the Andrew Hubman of LLM.>> Yeah I'm shifting each Oh but to sorry Ididn't finish the story. So themeditation point there, there's a greatquestion um which I ended up learningwas asking your mind what thoughts goingto come up next>> and it's like your mind gets a bit it'salmost this Mexican

02:16:40standoff and theproblem with these devices I once askedmyself that and my mind went quiet for 6seconds and then for whatever reasonthere's this former biomunic wingercalled Iron Robin and it's just himchecking in on the left foot in my headand it's like that was that me why isthat there so if I have a neuralinkingdevice. It's an interesting one of howdoes it know what was me versus what'sjust my monkey mind doing strangebehaviors. [laughter]>> You know, um>> I can't wait to see the first faileddemos of, you know what I mean? Likethese epic software demo fails. Someonegets up and it's just like [ __ ] [ __ ][ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] [laughter]>> Especially like penis penis.>> Especially given that the likelihood ofit being Elon to do the firstpresentation is quite high. A man with amind that I don't think anybody wants tosee broadcast out into public. Did yousee that demo of the uh Cyber Truckwhere he was on stage window and he[laughter] smashed the window and he'slike, "Wait, that's not supposed tohappen.">> Um,>> the best film I've watched all year,it's a British film. It's probably oneof the best like storytelling examplesI've ever heard. So, people will know itfrom the Brits award. It was thishorrific incident where Michael B.Jordan went on stage and somebodyshouted the N-word out and it was thishuge controversial incident. But whatactually happened was it was a guy whohas one of the most severe form ofTourette's

02:17:56>> and he was subject of a film.>> He was subject of a film. So he was atthe bath. So the film is called I swear.And it's incredible because this guygrew up in Scotland which is like thinkabout all the stereotypes you have aboutEngland. Like the further north you getthe more like harsher it essentially is.>> Yeah. People from Abedine are some ofthe most like brutal people on theplanet. So this man grew up with extremeTourette's in the 70s 80s England whennobody knew what the condition was. Sothe film's amazing because it's just himlike walking to the shops going fat [ __ ]and he go and he's just getting the [ __ ]bean out of him and he can't explainwhat it is. So he's constantly gettinginto fights. There's a scene where he'swalking his dog and this is real. Sohe's walking his dog um across the umabout to go across a busy road and heloves this dog but there's a car comingand he goes walk forwards now. And thenhe has to grab the dog. He's>> Tourette's. He's fighting againsthimself.>> Yeah, he's fighting against himself.It's so good. It's such a good film.>> Oh, where can you see it?>> Um I sw if you just search I swear.[laughter]>> [ __ ] you. [ __ ] you.>> So>> I missed it.>> [ __ ] you.>> From Living with Chris. The man's a bitof a boomer.>> And I'll often like give him arecommendation and I'll go he'll go,"Where can I see it?" And if it's not onNetflix,

02:19:11he can't get it.>> No. No. Just Google it. Just figureThat's not fair. That's not that's notfair and that's not true. But myresponse is what can I watch it on>> and I'll just say Google it.>> Right. But that's a fair I I feel likethis is a little bit like>> here's a fantastic new restaurant. Okay.What streets it on? I just want a littlebit more information. And the fact thatyou want me knowing what you know, whichis that you might understand whatstreaming service it's on.>> Saying to me that I have to go andGoogle it when you could just say it'son Netflix and me and Tim this side ofthe table.>> We just expect a little bit moredecorum. You know what I mean?>> This is why I This is why I want AGI tocome because it gives me>> So glad you brought me to [laughter]this [ __ ] All right. All right. Allright.>> Wait. Going back to the um photo thing.Do you guys know what people areutilizing um chatbt and whatnot for whenthey upload photos of themselves? Looksmaxing.>> Oh, that's interesting. Do you knowcodes?>> What do they what they upload a set ofphotos? There's these apps on the appstore too now that kind of do a rapperexperience. But the idea is thateffectively, you know, you upload photosto to Gemini or Chad GBT and then itsuggests things that you might want todo whether it's>> smash your cheekbones with this type of>> medical procedure, you know, jawsurgery, um having a symmetric face,even things like hairstyle make a huge

02:20:26difference or a beard or whatever.>> Skip that section. And roughly it's it'sreally interesting that people are doingthis because um obviously there's thishuge craze of looks maxing and whatnotand um turns out huge use case for AI.>> Dude, check out Codes. I've just sentthis to you Jared. Um coso look at this. So this is glow upwithout surgery. Get your personalizedfacial analysis and transformation plan.So I know the science team behind it.The science team behind this areabsolutely sick. So look at the guy onthe right and then like you should beable to do a transition. You see how youcan get the middle of the guy's face.You should be able to click on it. Yeah,exactly. So move it all the way to theright.>> You was worried about mean intent. Lookat this.>> And then go to the left.>> Wow. Got it. So it's like drive byshooting suspect to soap opera star.>> Exactly.>> Uh get more career opportunities, boostyour self-confidence, make a strongerfirst impression, improve your datinglife, enhance your quality of life. Sobasically it's go uh let me see the oneon the left again.>> Go the swing it.She's really attractive.>> I feel like that's one of those likeSandra Bulock. Oh, she takes off theglasses and walks out and she goes from>> Yeah. You're like, "Wait, thesupermodel.">> That's all she did.>> Uh, she's shaped a face. Do it again,Jared.>> Show me.>> Slow it down. Go really slow.>> [ __ ] hell.>> Uh,

02:21:42slow.>> You [snorts] know, this is just IRLFacetune, right? Um,>> yeah. So, if you There's like Facetunehas all of the Facetune. I don't Do youguys know what Facetune is?>> I learned about it from Freyer India acouple of weeks ago. one of the most itit came out very a long time ago Israelicompany and u>> and it's it's just a easy way ofmanipulating the way that your facelooks and you know slims your jawline orwhatever gives you way>> like as in on a photo not not actuallyso so it turns out every Instagrammer orbefore they post any time people postphotos um they typically went throughthe same workflows and facetune was kindof a um you know just a bunch of toolsthat you can utilize. And now with AI,>> oh yeah,>> um, holy crap. I mean, the possibilitiesare quite limitless. And so, you know,it can regenerate that photo. And so atthe bottom there are all these like AIfilters and um, people use them so so somuch. And often I I heard this storywhere uh one of my friends met somebodyfrom Instagram and you know they had athey had all these photos and uh shelooked nothing like herself real life.>> Well, let me give you this from Freya.Um when>> from Freya>> Freya India

02:22:58is a a girl writer who justreleased a book called>> Girls the Nordic God.>> Uh she does look a little bit like thatblonde hair. She's like the what wouldwhat's the female equipment of the Ubermench? Ubering or whatever it's called.>> Uber.>> Yeah. Uh she's that um Yeah. She uh shewas telling me that when groups of younggirls are out and they're taking photosat a party, everybody fights to be theone whose phone is used to have thephoto taken because that means thatthey're the one that's in charge of theface tuning. [laughter]>> Yep.>> So that they can work on themselves alittle bit more and dial. It's actuallyit's actually a huge social phaua if you>> post a picture where you look good andthe other person doesn't.>> Stitching that is stitching your mate upa little bit. You know there's a famousuh English footballer called AshleyCole. Can you just search Ashley Colesquad photo and this How long is this 10years? Uh yeah he was when he was atRoma so it's and he's retired. Do youwant to tell us story?>> Was just a a squad photo. It's it's oneof those I know it when I see it ideas Iguess. Um, but it's just a footballphoto of the entire Roma team and AshleyCole, who's this Brit, is like trying tomingle with these Italians.Iconic. Yeah. Top left. Cuz he's just

02:24:13awkwardly leaning on the outside. Sothen he gets me'd everywhere.>> This became one of the biggest memes inthe world. [laughter]>> For a long time, it's a team. It lookslike>> the headline. Scroll down a little bit.[laughter]>> Ashley Cole appears to be an outcast inan incredibly awkward Roma team picture.The amount of times me and Chris havebeen out with like a group of guys andI'll do the ashy call like two yards>> just moves off to one side ruins.Absolutely ruins it. All right, boys.Let's bring this one into land. You allrule. Uh Tim, what have you got comingup? Where should people go to check outyour things?>> Uh you can find everything at tim.blog.I'd say that's probably the easiest.Yeah, check out the newsletter. It'sbeen going for like 10, 12, 14, godknows how many years. Five Saturday.>> What was that one that most recentarticle about uh uh self-improvement?what I learned from however many yearsof self-improvement.>> Ah, yes. Yeah, that was it's called theself-help trap. What I learned after 20years of quote unquote Yeah. improvingmyself.>> That's awesome.>> Yeah, that's a long form that's on theblog tw 102 pages. tim.blog Friday. Signup for the newsletter. A lot of thestuff that we're talking about like goback if you want some also anotherreason to check out neurosimulation. goback and look at the Brainsway stockgraph for the last two or three years.[gasps] Um, so that

02:25:28type of stuff you'lllearn about before other people.>> Okay.>> Not I'm not a registered investmentadviser. I should make blah blah blahblah lose money. Yeah.>> Um, no, I appreciate you guys having meon. Um, our our app is called Sky, Sk.[clears throat]And it's a fun little experience. It'skind of a new way to experience yourphone. Um, it's kind of ironic thatwe're, you know, I talked about thathaving, you know, we talked about thedigital de detox or whatever, but ourgoal is to kind of really make you stopusing as much as you would otherwise bysurfacing the things that you might careabout before. Essentially, you don't gointo this doom scrolling world orwhatever. Uh, imagine something thatexists there. Um, it's there when youneed it, it's gone when you don't, andwe don't really have anything else. So,it's a fun little thing. We couplepeople and uh we've got tens ofthousands of people on a wait list rightnow. So, we're trying to fulfill thatinference is very expensive, but uh it'sbeen the time of my life to build this.I'm I guess I I love technology so much.Um, and I [clears throat] loveinterfaces and I love thinking about theworld with respect to how the futuremight be in terms of people interactingwith the with the with the technology ina in a meaningful way, not necessarilyin a um doom

02:26:44scrolling sort of thisworld that we've kind of built. So, Idon't know where we'll go with that, butit's been it's been an incredible timebuilding. Um, and uh what a time to bealive. as if you're if you're any typeof builder today, it is probably one ofthe most remarkable times I've everwitnessed. I'm baffled every day. Um,and so it's been so much fun. Uh, anduh, we're just getting started. So, I'mI'm really excited for that.>> And at Signal on X with two L's, s i g nu l if you want to see you call out theXbox CEO a little bit more.>> That's pretty hilarious. I wonder ifshe's going to watch this.>> Signal [laughter]sniffies.>> Sniffies. Sorry, I I need to take thatusername from that app.>> Yeah, match match with me there. Um, myend high agency.com/books.If you want to get a breakdown of all mybest books, you told me to do this.There's going to be a a book breakdown,a list of a load of different books, butthe personal one of uh Oblamov, aRussian man from the 18th century whothe first 50 pages are about him gettingout of bed. So, there's there's moreresources like that. Get my best booksand articles. That's it.>> Heck yeah. All right,>> let's go.>> See you next time, everyone.Yo, cheers, gentlemen.>> Yes, there we go.>> Fun.>> Congratulations. You made it to the endof a full podcast episode. You are notso

02:27:59Tik Tok brain that you've completelydissolved into nothingness.Why not watch another one right here?Go on, press it.