The Price of Obsession Nobody Talks About - Zach Braff

00:00:00As somebody that's basically aphilistine and has seen maybe two orthree theater shows in his entire life.>> Yeah.>> Of a career of being a spectator, andobviously a person who kind ofunderstands the art form as well, whatare the ones that stand out to you as uhthis is that was really really special?>> Well, I'll tell you Les Mis Rob, whichis which is which which is a probably avery common answer for people. I waslike 13 years old and I had never reallybeen moved to tears by art before.I had never seensomething as as a young person sobeautiful in my life. I was so moved bythe music. I was so moved by the thestagecraft. I was the story wasthrilling. So, that was a really seminalmoment in my young life. You know, mydad had been bringing me to see all theplay Yeah, I lived in North Jersey. So,my dad would bring me in, you know, ittook 45 minutes and we he loved theater.He he got me into it. So, he would bringme to see all these plays. A lot of themwere sillies. A lot would go over myhead.Um but I loved it. And then Les Mis Robwas the first one where I was at theright age to to feel emotion, to havetears streaming down my face. And that'swhen I was like, "What is this? This artform isis something that is so powerful."And so, then I went on to see like somany productions that

00:01:15both both musicalsand dramas and comedies where there wasjust so much joy for me in seeing ithappen live and having it be differentevery single time. And the sharedexperience with people around you whoare also swiping a tear or laughing. Uhthat that's just something's reallymagical. When it's great. When it'sgreat, it's just so fun.>> What about when it's bad?>> When it's bad, it's really bad and uhyou know, I never leave at intermissionjust because I've I've I'm an actormyself and I feel too bad to do that.UmUh yeah, it can be it can be it it canbe horrible.But, um I try, you know, I do I do I dofilter what I'm not I'm not going to seethings totally blind.>> in blind.>> I don't go in totally blind. No, thatwould be that would be that would I'd belying if I said I was just going to anyrandom show. I I definitely go to whatI've heard my friends uh say, "You gotto check this out.">> Mhm. I've heard that you wanted to be adoctor at one point.>> When I was in high school, there was aprogram in my high school with the thetown had a volunteer rescue squad. UmI guess uh that that's just the way itworks in some towns um in New Jersey atleast. I can only speak to that is thatthe town has a volunteer rescue squad ofpeople who are EMTs who who donate their

00:02:30time and there's an ambulance service.On serious calls, the paramedics come ina separate ambulance from the hospital.Um and they had a program for kids thatwere 17 and up to volunteer and gettrained and go on calls. And I went onmany calls umwith the ambulance service. And youknow, you're mostly doing the gruntwork. You're you're carrying gear.You're moving thestretchers. Uh you're you're takingblood pressures.But it was thrilling. And uh I thinkthere was a moment there where Ithought, "Wow, what a what an excitingcareer path to be and not that I couldnecessarily uhstand the education to become a realdoctor um ironically. But um but maybe aparamedic or maybe um something in thesomething in the field." And umand then I just never really I excelledat the classes that you know, biologyand chemistry and and all the thingsthat you need really great at. I I justdidn't have the interest or the skill.>> The fun bits were fun, but the technicalbits got in the way.>> was fun and coming to the rescue was funand um uh I loved all that. I loved Iloved coming to the rescue. I loved umthe adrenaline of it umand and feeling like you helped people.And and you felt

00:03:46really good. Also,there was a volunteer aspect of it thatI'm that I'm sorrythat that was an part of it, too. I wasI felt great that I was doing all ofthis and volunteering this in service.Yes, I>> It's interesting you get the threeemergency services, right? You've gotambulance, fire, police.There's an issue going on. The ambulanceturns up. Everybody's grateful.There's an issue going on. The fireservice turns up. Everybody's gratefuland turned on.The police turn up.People get a little bit suspicious.Unless you're the very person that needsit, everyone immediately gets on watch.And I always think I always feel bad forpolice officers. They're doing a thing.They're still doing a service. And inmany ways they're in the line of fire.They'redealing with much more kineticsituations. I guess five firefighterstoo. And alsoI'm sure ambulance, but you think [ __ ]like police officers really, you know,they're being shouted at and there's allof this potential stuff and they'relooking over their shoulders andI know. That that must be hard. It mustbe hard to be a a police officer whenyou look at your fellow, you know, ofthe three branches that you could havegone down in emergency services. Likepeople sort of clapping applauds andthere's a lot more>> heroism and that and the publicperception I think of police officershas had a rough run over the last decadeor so.>> Absolutely. And there's a lot morenuance to that profession thanfire and and ambulance.

00:05:01>> Stop fire, get cat out of tree, or keepperson alive as opposed to do one oflike 50,000 million things here.>> Yeah.>> Yep.>> Um but there was a burglary a homeinvasion on my street uhthis week and uh it's scary. I wascertainly happy that they were they werethere.>> Home invasion? Like a robbery>> Yeah, they broke in the house and and uhheld thiswoman and and and and stole her jewelryand were in no rush to get out of thereandit was scary.>> That's gnarly.>> Yeah, it's gnarly.Yeah, I um>> It's an interesting one thinking aboutwhat jobs you would do if you weren'tdoing what you did. I was thinking aboutthis the other day. Have you Have youever obviously you maybe didn't have thechops to do the>> I I have the I didn't have the interestin in in uh in in school enough to go toget into medical school or the SATscores or the or the grades or I mean,you really have to love school. UmI love design. I you know, I think I'mreally into uh architecture and design.And I think that kind of overlaps withwhat I do as a director becauseyou'rehiring and collaborating with extremelytalented crafts people who are the bestat what they do.

00:06:18And you're saying, "I have this roughidea. Will you help me execute it?" Andthen you put together this team ofinsanely talentedin the case of film, cinematographersand production designers and costumedesigners and actors andeveryone comes together and they helpyou execute. And uhAnd and and to me that if I if I wasn'tallowed to work in entertainment forsome reason, that's something thatreally lights me up cuz I I I do love umarchitecture and design.>> Who's someone on a film set or on a on aproduction that makes a massivedifference that most people from outsideof the industry don't even consider?>> The cinematographer, I mean, I thinkit's the is the number oneuhcollaborative person the director has.That is his his or her right handperson.>> What's that role for people that don'tunderstand? For people that don't knowumthe way that this everything isphotographed. The the the the lenschoice, the way just for example thatthis interview is being lit. It was litby a talented cinematographer who chosewhere to put these three lights and andhow those how what lenses he was goingto put on the cameras and how inpost-production it was going to becolored. So much of that makes adifference. I would imagine a lot oflaymen

00:07:33uh think that that's all thedirector. The director is sort of theconductor of the orchestra.If the crew is the orchestra, thedirector's the conductor of theorchestra. And if the first violinistis, let's say, the most important personin the orchestra,uh I I would say that's thecinematographer. And the director isthere going,"I can't play the the violin like that.I can't play the bassoon like that. Youguys are the best at what you do. My jobis to goa little more of this, little morelittle less of that." And, umAnd, yeah, the other position that I'msure most people not in the businessI'm sure most people in the businessdon't know anything about is the firstAD,who is the first assistant director,who's running the whole set. Um intheater parlance, it's kind of like thestage manager, butyou know, the director is in charge ofoverseeing the creative aspects of ofwhat we're making,but someone is marshalling thisoften times enormous crew and all thebackground and all the actors allaround. And the And the head of thatdepartment is the first assistantdirector, and that's a very stressfuljob. They um they stereotypically dieyoung because it's so stressful. No way.Yeah.>> They're trading their lifespan for goodproduction and not going into OT.>> They always laugh about it. They'realways like, "You know, we

00:08:48They They always They always have a Theyalways laugh and go, 'You know, westereotypically die young.'" Um but it'svery stressful job. It's hard to It'shard to do.>> They're the people that make sure itdoesn't go into overtime.>> Yeah, they're managing how much time youhave. So, when you make a schedule forWe shoot Scrubs, for example, in in 5days. And so, they're>> And how many episodes in 5 days?>> We shoot one episode in 5 days.>> Right.>> And so, they alwaysalways, even back in the day, yeah, 5days.>> Oh, okay.>> It's umit's kind of crazy. Um the new streamingcomedies havethe ones that I direct have um have sortof moved to 6 and 1/2 days, which is alot, which you think only is a day and ahalf more, but it's a huge difference interms of executing itin a in a relatively sane way. We'retalking about a half hour of television.Uhdoing it in 5 days is especially a showlike Scrubs that hasthese uh surreal set pieces and uh youknow, the fantasies and>> Lots of moving parts.>> Lots of moving parts like camera being acharacter and also to mention that youknow,60 to 100 background uh every day.>> Mhm. Mhm.>> So, it is the it's my it's a lot to umto it's a big cruise ship to to to tomove around

00:10:04and umthe first AD is in charge of making thatschedule and um telling you like, "Hey,we're sort of [ __ ] for time. You gotyou got to move on.">> Yeah. Wow. So, that means that there'ssome scene that you aren't quite happywith and you're like, "Dude, this youit's done." Like you're done with thescene.>> Well, you as the director are the arethe ultimate uh decision-maker and"Am I going to spend more time on thisand then save [ __ ] that next scene. I'lldo that. I was I had a lot I I goodideas about how I was going to shoot it.I'm going to shoot it way more simplynow because this isn't working yet."You're you're the one who's in charge ofofthe day the time has been allotted forthat day for for just to do thesescenes. You have to do those scenes.>> Yep.>> Of course, occasionally you have to puntone, but for the most part you have todo that and it'syou're constantly watching the time andgoing, "Okay, fuck."And what we do is we the you'll I get aspecial call sheet that only certainpeople have, the producers and the ADand that has little times>> written into all of the schedule becauseyou don't want everyone knowing thatyou're behind or you're ahead. It's notgood for for not a good leadership thingI I don't believe. It's best that youjustYou do your job. I'll tell you when tomove.>> Exactly. Yeah.>> Yeah. How's it feel to be back in an

00:11:19oldproduction?>> I love it. It's so it's a a whole newresponsibility for me because II did this show as a as a young man. Iwas very green.UmI learned so much doing it and now I'mback in a leadership executive producerrole being the boss. And the guy whotaught me everything I know isis not really there and heumis there to advise me on the phone andhe's there to get involved when there'sa fire that needs putting out, but I'mback now in a in a in a capacity as asthe leader and uhand it's a whole lot more stressful thanjust showing up and being funny.>> [laughter]>> Is that Talk to me about the thechallenge ofgoing from I just need to show up and domy lines to I need to show up and doeverything and do my lines.>> It's extraordinarily stressful. Um>> Did you want that?Did you not just want to go back andhave fun?>> That wasn't going to work.UmSo Bill Lawrence created the showand Bill is it was his sort ofone-person vision. You know, it was avery specific vision. The reason itworked so much it was it was so unique.It was comedy, it was drama, it hadsurreal fantasies.

00:12:34Uh it had the the the setting of ahospital which has infinitepossibilities for for comedy and drama.These seven main characters thataudiences really fell in love with andand followed them for for eight and ahalf years.Umbut Bill has many shows happening rightnow. So as much as everyone wantedScrubs to come back including Billhe couldn't he certainly couldn't bewriting it and micromanaging it. So whowould do that? UmThere's someone who runs the writers'room and is the head writer. Uh her nameis Aseem Batra. She was a writer on theoriginal Scrubs.Umbut the writers' room is here in LA. Weshoot the show in Vancouver.So who is going to be overseeing Scrubsup there the production of it all? Um Ihad I had partners umaseveral producing partners who helpedme, butI I know the show better than anybody.The truth the truth. I know the showbetter than anyone. I direct the show.Um and I and and my mentor was the guy.I mean, I'm I'm the one The funny thingisI keep saying this is thatthe pilot of this new Scrubs is about JDcoming back because Dr. Cox says

00:13:50you should come back.Umwe should get the band back together.You should come back and make adifference and and and and and JDacquiesces and says, "Yes, I'm I'm here.I can't wait to work with you." And thenhis mentor goes, "Oh, you misunderstood.I'm not going to be here. You're incharge."That's the pilot of the reboot therevival. And we were up there shootingand it's literally what happened. I hadhad this impression even though Bill hadsaid like, "Hey, I'm I'm running likethree other shows. I can't And I alsoThere's also just somestuff with you know, it's a it's aDisney property. He has a WarnerBrothers deal. He can't be there.>> Complexity.>> Sobut I didn't really I truly didn't havethe epiphany until we were shooting whenI went, "This is literally the showwe're making. He's the one who called meand said let's get everyone backtogether. This will be so fun." And nowwe're literally shooting the pilot andit's so intense and so hard and andwe're really trying to nail this for thefans and he's like, "Oh, and by the way,I think you may have misunderstood. LikeI'm not going to I'm not going to bethere.>> Mhm.>> This is you. You got this.">> Mhm.>> And so I I did have to step up in a waythat I hadn't foreseen.Umand it was very stressful. But when thepilot was cut, it wasit changed everything. Everyonewas like, "Oh,

00:15:06this could be really good."The studio the the network Bill himselfeveryone kind of changed.>> like a passing of the torch when you gotthe the pat on the shoulder from dadfinally after all of these years? Youdid good, son.>> Absolutely. Absolutely.>> Cuz he's not huge with the compliments.>> Mhm.>> He wrote me a Christmas card this yearthat was basically like the nicest thinghe's ever said to me and then it endedwith I hope this will last for at leasta year.>> [laughter]>> Nostalgia is apretty powerful force.>> Yeah. How do you make sure it's umserving the show instead of justtrapping it?>> I think we were very aware of what areall the pitfalls of these revivalsreboots and revivals. What were>> Welcome back in the middle is come backtoo.>> Yeah, I didn't never watch that show butit'sas I as I understand it and very wellreceived for people that that that showwas important to.Um for our purposesI was very I I I I sort of did researchon what are the common pitfalls of thisand one of them isjust trying to milk nostalgia becauseyou're never going to build a newaudience by going remember this rememberthat oh wasn't it funny just doingcallback jokes.That gets exhausting and also it doesn'tinterest a newuh base

00:16:21of the audience you're justhaving people thatwere die hard fans of the original show.Which isn't enough to really sustain anaudience for a modern day show that's inABC primetime and streaming on Hulu thenext day.You have to find you have to find a wayto build the audience.Uh and also Scrubs was very big aroundthe world sothere's a lot of people that are goingto that be interested but they're notgoing to going to hold their interestwith just nostalgia bait. So thechallenge is how do youthread that needle of umfinding the tone again and but alsobringing in new characters and newscenarios and new people were 50years old now. We were we were the kids.The show was I just kind of you got tothink this is funny I had this epiphanyjust recently but we were talking aboutideas for season two.The show was aboutthree interns.That's what the old show was about. Nowthe show is about three attendings threesenior doctors.The it's a teaching hospital so it'salways going to be about have interns init and about and about teaching andmentorship and friendship.But um the show the focus of the showisn't interns any anymore. The focus ofthe show is the teachers.>> Most people don't realize how much beingdehydrated impacts their performance,which is why for the last 5 years I'vestarted pretty

00:17:36much every morning withElement. Element is a tasty electrolytedrink mix with everything that you needand nothing that you don't. This orangesalt in a cold glass of water is like asweet salty orangey nectar and I reallytell the difference when I take itversus when I don't. It plays a criticalrole in reducing muscle cramps andfatigue, helps to optimize brain health,and regulates your appetite while alsocurbing cravings. Best of all, they havea no questions asked refund policy withan unlimited duration, so you can buy itand try it for as long as you want, andif you don't like it for any reason,I'll just give you your money back.Plus, they offer free shipping in theUS. Right now, you can get a free samplepack of Element's most popular flavorswith your first purchase by going to thelink in the description below or headingto drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.That's drinklmnt.com/modern wisdom.>> Did it make you see your experience fromthe past in a different way? Kind offascinated at the opportunity to go backAnything that's been formative foranybody, any experience somebody goes toto university and they have a time thereand they look back after a decade andthey wish they'd done things differentlyor they see things thatpassed them by or that they didn't payattention to or they paid too muchattention to and a lot of the time youknowif only it's the if only like coachwould put

00:18:51me in I would have won thehigh school game and then my NFLcontract blah blah blah. Yeah, invarying degrees of different things.I amI wonder ifafter a long time, 9 years of shootingit originally, to then a break, to thenand back again now different role, if itmakes you see that experience previouslyin a different light or if it allowedyou toclose some loops and uh>> It made me grateful for how much Ilearned. I mean, I was I wanted to makemovies, I wanted to make TV, I wanted tobe a director. I went to film school.I got out of film school, I was workingas production assistant and and waitingtables and auditioning and doing all thethings I could to have as manyyou know, um irons in the fire aspossible.And then I got Scrubs and I was soexcited because every every week there'sa different director. And it to me itwas like grad school. I got to watch allof these greatcomedy directors do their thing. Andthey all had different styles and theyhave to work within the within thelexicon of the show, but they all haddifferent techniques and styles and waysof doing things andinitially I was just so excited toabsorbumtheir their their wisdom and>> speed running production film schoolbasically.>> Exactly. And with at a at a pro level,being

00:20:06the star of the show and everyoneelse going to their dressing rooms, mehanging out on set being like, "Oh, whatare you doing? That's so cool." And themgoing, "Oh, the reason I'm doing this iscuz of this." Andso that was amazing. I think after awhile if I look back I go I I I Istarted taking it for granted. I I seesome of my I you knowDonald Faison, my co-star, and we did arewatch podcast of the show. That wasone of the>> Mhm.>> [clears throat]>> Ultimately, I think it was one of thecatalysts for this revival.And we were very candid. We we wewatched it and and and didn't hold backwhen we thought we sucked or an episodesucked or our we were overacting and>> Mhm.>> And so I think when when I when I lookedback at it I thought, "Wow, I at acertain point I don't think I was asgood and and I think I was overactingand I think I I see where the wheelskind of fell off the bus.">> Mhm.>> And so now I'm very aware of now thatI'm the in charge, keeping everyone uhuhat a certain quality, especially myself.>> Did you ever feel constrained by beingso well known for one role? Obviously,there's a>> Yeah.>> a curse of success in in some degrees.People get typecast, butwhat was some of the things that wereenabled and some of the things that werelimited by doing that?>> It's what

00:21:21everybody wants. I want to bereally well known, have a wonderfulproduction.>> Yeah. And then at the same time, there'sathere's some side dishes that come alongwith that.>> That happens to almost everyone that'slucky enough lucky enough blessed enoughto to have a breakout hit. Umand it's very if you look at the casesin history, it's it's rare that thosepeopleget a whole new array of ofopportunities. Um Brian Cranston is anperfect example of someone who did. DidMalcolm in the Middle and was was thatguy.>> Until he was the next guy.>> Until he and until Breaking Bad that waspassed on by as I understand the lorewas passed on by like every network andand uhuntil I think AMCuh made it.And Brian Cranston was reborn.But they umthat happens of course because peoplefall in love with with this belovedcharacter and they don't see you as asanother thing.>> Mhm.>> You can't hardly complain because youwere one of the extraordinarily luckypeople who got a an opportunity likelike that. But you do I'm sure every butyou can't help but bemoan like I wish Icould I wish I could be taken seriouslyas something else. I I was

00:22:37lucky that Ihad my directing career that I reallywanted to pursue. So my own movies, makemy own stuff.Umbut in the last couple yearsum I've been finally getting a couple ofparts that are outside the box of of JD.Something actually through Bill againwho's been my my biggest champion.He gave me a small part on uh BadMonkey, his show with Vince Vaughn.And I was only in a couple episodes, butthe part was so differentand I got so much positive feedback forit and it it it it it really gave me anew found um confidence in my ownability that I had sort of gone likemaybe I am justyou know, a comic.You maybe I am just a sort of JD kind ofguy. I mean, I knew I had more colors inme, but Ithe response to that little arc on BadMonkey gave meconfidence and in a way in a way andthen I went and did this independentmovie that just got into Tribeca whereI'm 180 degrees from anything I've everdone playing the the this narcotics copum who lost his daughter. It's a truestory and umso that movie's called Clean Hands andit's going to be a Tribeca uh theTribeca Film Festival this this summer.But so yeah, I would love to do more

00:23:52andmore of that. Umbut I can't complain. I've had the I'veI've been so lucky.>> Mhm.It's interesting Iwonder how many peoplegetwhat you had which is a kind of almostlike a kind of Stockholm Syndrome foryour own success. So sometimes peoplegetsuccessful for doing a thing.Other people don't want to have toupdate their world view about thatperson.Sothey don't like it when they deviate. Ithink we see this in our personal lives.Somebody is the party guy or the partygirl and then so I'm focusing on myhealth and it's like uhthis is I I did I have to change who Ithink you are I used to be and likecan sometimes cause a little bit ofobviouslypeople that are in your life that arewanting the best for you are very happythat you're making this positivelifestyle change, but maybe people whodon't want to make that change to theirtheir behavior gets thrown into harshcontrast.>> Yeah. But the pressure from the outside,what's interesting about what you saidwas that you started to see yourselfpotentially in that uh through thelooking glass thing. And wellmaybe I am maybe I am just that. Likemaybe that is like, you know, lots ofother people seem to like me in that and[ __ ] am I ever going to have a betterhit than that thing before?" And Iwonder whether it's the same thing withpeople who just want to

00:25:08change their lives. Somebody wants to gofrom being that thing. It's like, "Well,>> Absolutely.>> everyone else is telling me that I Yeah,I'm so like I was the fun like partygirl or whatever and now I'm like I'mjust a mom and and I'm that's not asexciting or whatever. Maybe people don'tMaybe I'm not made for this." As opposedto No, thatit's their It's their problem. It's thatperson's issue to try and update theirview of you as an evolving and changingperson.>> By the way, that is true in both actingand in life. That if you change whoyou're being,the people around you have to change whothey're being. If I'm in a scene withyou and I'm all of a sudden decide to doa take where I'm [ __ ] screaming atyou and yelling in your face, if you'reeven a halfway decent actor, you'regoing to react differentlyin the scene. In life, if I totallychange my life and I'm not drinkinganymore and I'm not going out late andI'm um going to the gym and and you asmy friend are going to shift your way ofbeing around me because you have nochoice.Uh we can we can both in acting and inlife shift uhuhchoose to shift who we're we're being.And then people can't help but reactdifferently to us.>> Yeah, uh Joe Hudsonpersonal growth was it?talks about

00:26:23howif you show up in a different way,the other person's patterns can onlyusually exist, in his estimation, forabout five to seven interactions.>> Oh, wow.>> is aa typical way that you and your partnerfight, right?They get to play the victim and you getto play the bully. They get to play thebully and you get to play the savior. Uhwhatever the accepted trade is, I'mgoing to complain to you and you'regoing to feel aggrieved or you're goingto tell me what it is I need to do andI'm going to appease you. Whatever itis. There'sa kind of exchange. There's a dance.There's a dance move.>> Yeah, it's like tennis. It's like I'mgoing to hit the ball over there. You'regoing to>> to hit it back in a particular way. Andthen if that happens, especially afterand the reason that he said this wasafter umgoing and doing something like theHoffman process or internal familysystems or uh groundbreakers, which ishis equivalent of a weekend retreat oryou you make a really big change in yourlife. Perhaps it'sover a short period of time or a longerperiod of time.But ifthis first exchange occurs, the personserves the ball across the net. If youdon't hit it back afterbetween five and seven times of that nothappening the other person can't keepdoing that pattern. They just simple Imean, I'm sure that there's some degreeof sociopathy

00:27:38that you're able to get towhere you just you just do your thing.>> Oh, there's enough crazy people outthere that will just [ __ ] plowthrough your>> your nice evolved, you know, Renaissancepatterns. But um yeah, that you youif you show up in a different way andI've tried to test this and it reallydoes seem to be like scarily true.There's a a line Naval Ravikant's gotwhere he says umwe think that we can change otherpeople, but we can't. We think we can'tchange ourselves, but we can. And thechanging of other people, the easiestway to do that, I think in terms ofbehavior change, is not by telling themwhat to do. It's just by doing somethingdifferently yourself.>> And sticking to it.>> Yes. Yes, because if you then fall backinto the go, "Ah, I see.">> Right. I was like>> It's>> It's kind of like training your dog. Uhif you don't as my Jersey accent dog, ifyou don't um the second if you'recreating training your dog, the secondthey're crying and you let them out,you're [ __ ] You [ __ ] it up. Theyyou know, uh hold the line. You have tohold the line. And in terms of myexperience, I didn't know that someonehad sort of quantified it to five toseven times. That's interesting. But umif you're going to shift your patternsand shift your way of being, you have tohold the line. You you have to you haveto not let the dog out of the crate andand not no matter when no matter howhard they're crying because uh

00:28:54uh because then then then you thenthose people aren't going to shift theirway of being back with you.>> Yes. Yes. What have been thepatterns that have been theI'm pretty fascinated by things thatdouble-edged swords.Most times uh someone's greateststrengths are the light side ofsomething that's kind of dark. But um Ihad Ryan Garcia, WBC world weightchampion, umhe'sobsessive.Incredibly obsessive. And that's causedhim at some point in his career to drinka lot and party an awful lot and tostruggle to get away from it. Uh it'salso caused him to bean absolutely like microscopicallyfocused athletewho would spend told me the story abouthow when he was a kidhe had a fight in the ring with some guyand this guy kept on catching him with aparticular shot and Ryan went home andhe just spent two hours in his bedroomthinking about why was he What was hedoing? Why was he catching me with thatshot? What was he doing? What was hedoing? What was he doing?Then he went downstairs and told hisdad, he's like, "Tell the kid come backtomorrow." He's like, "You Are you sure?You just got beat up pretty bad. Likethat didn't look like a goodexperience." He's like, "Bring him backtomorrow." And what he realized was thatthere was the guy was stepping and thenjabbing

00:30:10and that offbeat was throwingRyan off and he was like, "Okay, so whenhe does this thing, I'm going to stepand then I'm going to hit him with aright." And sure enough, the the wholegame was over because he'd spent twohours replaying this fight in his headcuz he couldn't not do it.>> Yeah.>> But that same skill of the obsession, ofthe attention to detail, of thehyper-vigilance also gave him thechallenges of overbearing, problems withhis relationships, problems with hiskids, problems with substances, likevery very out there anxious sort of onedge thing.>> I'm interested in>> Mine's similar without the beating the[ __ ] out of anybody.>> [laughter]>> No, I I I have OCD and I I I had it badas a kid. I was a I was one of thosekids who had obsessive tapping andyou do this math in your head as a childwhereor I should say I did where Iyou know, it could be a door knob or itcould be this water bottle and you say,"Oh, I have to I have to touch this acertain amount of times or uh somethingbad could happen to my family."And then even as a young person, I said,"That's crazy,of course,but just to be safe." It's kind of likea superstition. Adults can relate.>> Pascal's wager, the obsessive's wager.>> Yeah.>> Is that what it's called?>> what Pascal's

00:31:25wager is?>> No, but>> Basically that umI don't know whether God is real or not,but the cost of not believing in God ishell and the potential benefit ofbelieving in God is heaven.>> Okay, now imagine that in an a8-year-old's mind going,"I'm wagering. I don't want my family tobe harmed.">> Not sure if it's going to do anything,but I might as well.>> My brain is telling me that somethingbad could happen to my family if I don'thit this six times correctly. I knowthat's crazy, but for safety, foreverybody's safety, I should do it.>> it again for safety. Yeah, yeah, yeah.>> And that becomes you know, I I I had itpretty I had it bad, but you know,lots of adult and children have it wayworse.But I got I I I was diagnosed with withthat and it made me an anxious I wasanxious. UmMy father had a realtemper and umand that was scary and I think I was umhe was also he also had a lovely sideand introduced me to the arts and umand uh and and could be and washilarious. He introduced me to humor.But he did have quite a temper that uh Ithink put me for the rest of my life onon edge of when something bad was goingto happen, when he would

00:32:40randomlyexplode.>> Mhm.>> And [clears throat]uh that certainly affected my wholechildhood and and and II I still feel it as an adult and just asort of resting anxious state.>> Mhm.>> Now, that has been great for for uh forme in terms of writing and and comedy.It's but it's amazing that I I sometimesI find it crazy that I can operate atthisin in these very anxious leadershippositions>> [laughter]>> where so much is on the line and andthere's always a problem and there'sumI I I'm so grateful that I figured outhow to umjust still step into the ring and andand and and do the really hard thingslike despite not feeling like it.Yeah, despite like gosh, I this is goingto be hard and I'm going toexperience panic and discomfort andanxiety and adrenaline surges thataren't necessarily normal for for thelevel of the problem.>> Yeah.>> I mean, an OCD anxious person will oftenhave an adrenaline surge that is likeyou just almost got into a car accident.And that's what leads some people topanic attacks. That's sort of like theneedle going into red and staying in redand then there's a panic attack.Um

00:33:56But but all of that has contributed to Ithink uh humor and and um and uh and andbeing in my head a lot and and maybesome good some decent writing thatthat's come out of that, you know.>> And the attention to detail, right?>> Definitely obsessive attention todetail.>> Correct. And what I was trying to thinkabout is>> Me sitting there at on on Scrubs at 2:00in the morning for an insert shot of aphone that there's no reason I should bethere for. These people can handle it,but I do not want to get to theeditorial editorial and see that that'snot the frame I pictured of the phone.That's that's that's definitelyobsessive, but um it itit I I it's how I make stuff.>> Most people have no idea where theirtestosterone levels sit. But, what if Itold you there was a solution? Somethingthat identifies low T faster than a highschool bully, and it won't cost you allyour lunch money. That's where Functioncomes in. Gives you access to over 160lab tests, including a deep dive intoyour full hormone panel. Every result isreviewed by clinicians. Anything out ofrange is flagged. You get clearexplanations with a personalizedprotocol with actionable next steps. So,if something's off, you know exactlywhat to do about it. Whether you justneed to go to the gym more, or you needto play Creed louder in your car,Function will tell

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00:35:38at checkout. I think ultimately, whatwhat I was thinking about was what isthe outcomethat that achieves, right? Because wewe're talking about process. It's adegree ofdetail focus orientation,hypervigilance, um, uh,bias towardsseeing problemsas potentially before they've even Yeah,yeah, yeah, we are we areplaying, you know, anxiety is all aboutuncertainty.>> Yeah.>> I'm uncertain about how the future mightunfold. So, if I can think about all ofthe different ways that it might unfold,I will know all of the differentpotential catastrophes. You're notYou're not usually anxious about all ofthe ways it might go right. Anxiousabout all of the ways that it might gowrong.And if I can>> But, as a filmmaker who can't fallasleep at night while staring at theceiling, obsessing about the big sceneyou have tomorrow,it's not healthy, but it for you formind and body, but it is helpful in thatI've probably foreseen everything thatcould possibly go wrong.>> Yep.>> Yep. So, you're all prepared.>> And I've got texts going out at 2:00 inthe morning being like, "Did you guys dada da da di di da da da?" And you know,everyone's asleep, but I'm just sittingthere going like,"You did order the blee blo blah,right?" You know, like>> Yeah, I mean, it's the same dude, it'sthe same for me. It's the same for mewith this show. Um theuh

00:36:54noticing Dr. Jordan B. Peterson shouldhave a full stop after the B. And youknow, you just want to make sure thatit's okay. And did we check that we havewe got the release form that's signedfor the thing that's good good thing didi di di di di di di di di da.So, I'm thinking islots of people who have thatmalady strengthuh end up in situations where theythey can be very successful. So, myfavorite example of this isto a degree Eddie Hall. So, he's World'sStrongest Man 2017-2018, British dude,6'3. By the time that he won, he's onthe winner's podium and he puts histrophy in the air and he says, "Nana,this one's for you." His grandma diedrecently and he sort of won this titleand he retires there. It's first titleand he retires. All he's worked his lifeto get there. He says, "If I hadn'tretired at that point, I would be dead,divorced with no relationship to mykids." He was400 lb at 6'3 on so many PEDs that hisblood pressure was it's so far off thecharts that it would you forgethypertension, this was like galactictension.He was working so hard with his trainingthat him and his wife the relationshipwas just completely shot.And his kid didn't see him. So,everything was falling apart.And I think about that and I go, "Well,

00:38:09the level of obsession and attention todetail that led him to be the best inthe worldalso had these side effects that camealong with it. Physiological ones thatwere second-order side effects, but thefirst-order side effects of just notpaying that much attention to my wife,not paying that much attention to mychild, not nurturing my relationships,not thinking about the peace inside ofmy own brain. Andas far as I can see, the people that arereally successful at lots of things, noteverything, but at lots of things, arepaying an unreasonable level ofattention to detail.>> Mhm.>> That is where the I'm trying to net downwhat is the what's the like corn that'sbeing grown out of this thing for youacross your career. It's like anunreasonable level of attention todetail. Sounds like that. In my ownperformance, in what's going to go on,in what might happen tomorrow, and whatdid happen today, and the lesson I needto learn, and why is that Why are youWhy have we decided cuz I don'tunderstand why you brought that filllight? Oh, it's for the bounce off thewall.>> Right.>> Why why why why why why why why why? Andyet that unreasonable level of attentionto detail has allowed you to do allthese great things. Andwhen people look at the outcome thatthey want, I would love to be on a showthat gets run for gazillion gazillionseasons and they last for 9 years andthen comes back and it gets to do thething.

00:39:24I would like to do I would I would gookay.This stuff does come along for the ride,too.>> Yeah.>> You are also going to not only in theprofessional life be awake at 2:00 inthe morning texting people about the[ __ ] phone shot from yesterday,but then it's also going to bleed overinto your personal life as well.>> Yeah.>> You know, you can't switch it up. Youcan't just say oh I want you to beobsessive and ruminative in this domainand not be you you you you you you Whatabout my relationships? No, no, no, no,no. That's a totally different I shouldbe a different person. I should Jekylland Hyde, Batman and Bruce Wayne.Um I'm kind of I'm kind of fascinated bythat sphere of question. The price thatpeople pay in order to have thestrengths that they've got.>> I don't know how people do do this withbig families.I don't know how they do it.Um

00:40:11UhI don't have a family. I don't havechildren. I don't have a currently evenhave a partner. Uh I uhyou know, I I we when you're doing whatI do, you often will have to go away forlong periods of time.So, I uhI I would love to have that stuff, butthat's probably for me personally. Otherpeople are very good at managing andfiguring it out. Obviously, inHollywood, there's plenty of people withwives and husbands and families. I I umI've yet to have that happen. Um so, Ithink personally for me, one of thecosts has been just obsessivelyum being career-focused.>> Mhm.>> And umit it be it being um the most importantthing to me. The thing I love the most,the thing I get the most gratificationout of is is creating. And um I thinkthat's the cost has probably beenum giving watering the the the seeds ofof of of having uma family and a relationship.>> Mhm. How much of that's been a consciouschoice?You know, I'm I know that I'm going topay this price potentially.And I'm going to continue to focus onthe career thing.>> been a conscious choice. It's just

00:41:26beenit you know, umI do think Iuh if I had put the level of attentionand intention and focus into umhaving a relationship and a family thatI put into my career, uh thatI'd I'd be I'd have a different life.>> Well, I don't know. Well, I just have adifferent life.>> [laughter]>> I'd be like uh Jacob in the Bible, but II I um I haveumI I I I I think it's safe to say I justkind of went all in on umI mean, I've had some wonderfulrelationships, but I I I have beenthrough for the last 25 years completelymhm career-focused. And when I'm notmaking something, I'm writing something.Or when I'm not writing something, I'mtrying to collaborate with someone. I III I am the most happy when I'm makingstuff.>> Mhm.>> Umso when I'm not, I don't idle well. Idon't I don't um I don'tsit, you know, on a beach and uh and andand just stare at theocean well. Maybe for like a week.>> Yeah, I think about um people talk aboutdeveloping a good work ethic, but veryrarely do people talk about developing agood rest ethic.>> I would like that. If you got that book,

00:42:41I'll read it.>> I'm afraid not.>> Um I mean, look, dude, this is I I getI'm this is part of my neuroses, but Igo I actually get anxious when I knowI'm going to have a long time off.>> Yep.Does work feel like safety to you?>> I just feel like I'm most myself, I'mmost in my elementwhen I'mcollaborating and creating.And uhand when I'm not, I umI don't feel fully fulfilled.Uh even when I'm writing my own stuff,which is spending a lot of time alonewith the computer, I'm not I don't enjoyit.>> You want the collaboration.>> There's no collaboration. It's lonesome.It's depressing cuz some days are I'msure you write, you know, some daysyou're just like, I suck. I suck.>> I had a>> And the next day you read it and you'relike, actually that's not>> Yeah, I had aI had a I had a better night's sleep. Iam I remember this this comment when Ifirst started doing live stuff. So, Ijust finished this live tour aroundAustralia and New Zealand and Bali andit was so so sick.And umwhen I first started doing live 3 yearsago, uh someone commented with a pieceof advice and they said, when I'm onstage, I always have two voices that areequally loud in my head.One makes me Apollo and the other makesme Sisyphus. One says,

00:43:57you're amazingand you can keep going, and the othersays, you suck, you should quitimmediately. And I just think it's sofunny that when you have differentelementsof the same performance, right? In inyour in order to say a thing, you needto write the thing first unless you'regoing to ad-lib it. And and that meansthat some days you sit down to write andyou're like, "I [ __ ] blow as awriter." And other days you sit down towrite and you're like, "I'm great as awriter." But at each different juncture,someone that tends to be a little bitmore self-critical, someone that's gotthis predisposition towardhyper-vigilance, can be like, "Thatcould be better. It could always bebetter.">> Yeah.>> And that tends itself toward a kind ofingratitude, like microun gratefulness.Each different time because you canalways see I mean, I love that shot ofthe phone. It was great, but oh, if wejust had another half hour, if we ifwe'd been able to get that next 120D inand we'd just been able toyou know, adapted a little bit more. Andumbut this is what pushes somebody to beunreasonably detail-oriented to get to alevel of quality that is so beyond. Andthe marketand status and and and money andacclaim, by design, there can only beone winner.At an award ceremony, there can only beone best anything, right? At a time.The market rewardssomeone that is going to continue

00:45:12topush and push.>> I don't know how people enter thisbusiness without having the mentalitythat they're going togo all in on it because what I tellyoung people who I see starting out islike, okay, but make sure you're you'regoing to go 100% of what you havebecause every in this town, every singleperson around younot every single person.There's hundreds of thousands of peoplehere that are that are going to workreally really really hard.>> to have your lunch if you don't.>> Absolutely. If you're going to auditionand you don't have it memorized and youdidn't work on it as hard as youpossibly could andwork with your friends or work with acoach oror in this case, there's so muchself-taping,get a good lighting setup and a goodcamera and and a nice backdrop and andyou're just phoning it in. Do you knowhow many [ __ ] people are going allout for that same part>> basically pointless.>> You are the wasting everyone's time,especially yours.>> Umit's crazy when you come across peoplethat are that are trying I mean I I onlyknow this profession, but it's crazywhen you come across people that aredoing it half-assed. It's like, what areyouThis is you going to get blown out ofthe water.>> It's very much a winner takes all thingwhere only one person can play the role.>> Right.

00:46:28>> Only one person can be this particularbut the [ __ ] AC, right? That's onset. There's only one Maybe there's notactually, but there's only one numberone AC, right?>> Well, three cameras, three.>> Okay, you know what I mean. You knowwhat I mean.>> There's only one A camera first AC.>> There we go. Thank you. Yeah, you cancontinue to go up the stack. Umtypically there's only one person foreach big thing, right? And you go, wellif that means that I'm not prepared togo all in on that one Oh, think about itin the personal standpoint. Um you'regoing to go out dating. That person,unless you go polyamory, that person isonly going to be in a relationship withone person. And if you are not showingup in the best possible way, beingattentive, thinking about them, replyingin an orderly manner,doing stuff, being thoughtful.Somebody that's just a bit morethoughtful or a bit more chill like eventhe thoughtfulness of like, I I probablytext him a bit much today. Like I shouldI I can chill out for a little bit. Thehormones are [ __ ] neurochemicals arekicking in. Umyou will be beaten. Right? There will besomebody that's prepared to be morethoughtful. So, whatever theoptimal strategy iswith regards to effortif you're not prepared to give iteverything, the person that will justgets out ahead and that means thatyou've lost.>> Absolutely.Absolutely.

00:47:43And this is uma career path thatis all so much luck, but I often thinkof it as likeit's all a complete lottery.I think if you're really, reallypreposterously good-lookingyou have a lot of lottery tickets.>> Mhm. And if you're a really [ __ ]talented actor,you have a lot of lottery tickets. Ifyou're both, you have a [ __ ] ton oflottery tickets. But it's still acomplete lottery because I know plentypeople that are wonderful actors andthat you don't know who they are.And I and plenty people that arebeautiful and good actors and you don'tknow who they are.It's it's very very challengingcareer and I'm very very present to tobeing lucky.>> Yeah. How many people have you seenacross your career that you justyou can't believe that they never madeit.>> Plenty.>> Wow.>> Plenty. I canI have a couple people that come rightto my mind uhwho who I'm like, why have why is theirnumber not come up yet? That person isgorgeous and has blue eyes and is one ofthe best actors I know.>> Umyou know, they might get work here andthere.>> Yeah.>> But they're not a household name.They're not

00:48:58They're not not not a leadon a show.UmYou just go watch New York theater. Imean, you'll see some of the best actingand in London, of course, you'll seesome of the best acting you'll ever seein your [clears throat] lifetime andsome of those people don'tcan't or have yet to convert that to uhto TV or film.>> Did you know your gut controls yourenergy, your recovery, how well youabsorb everything that you eat, and theone nutrient that keeps it all runningproperly is fiber? Well, it turns outthat 95% of Americans don't get enoughof it, which is why I'm such a huge fanof Mementos' Fiber Plus. Most fibersupplements are one-trick pony, one typeof fiber solving one part of theproblem. Fiber Plus is a three-in-oneformula built to tackle digestion, gutbarrier strength, and blood sugarstability all at once. I use this everysingle day. It is kind of hard to getenough fiber just through food alone andbest of all Momentous offers a 30-daymoney-back guarantee. So, you can buyit, try it every single day for 29 daysand if you don't love it, they will justgive you your money back. Plus, theyship internationally. Right now, you canget up to 35% off your firstsubscription and that 30-day money-backguarantee by going to the link in thedescription below or heading tolivemomentous.com/modernwisdomand using the code modernwisdom

00:50:14at checkout. How do you think peopleshould reckon with thecuz that's a kind of uncertainty that'salmost outside of your control. Right?That you can't make somebody give you achance at something. You can stack thedeck in your favor as much as possible,but can understand why people becomebitter orjaded or resentful.>> Absolutely. If you're giving 100% andyou're as still not It's It's of courseyou're going to get jaded. It's It'sThere's no No one owes you anything inhere and and and I have to remind myselfthat too when I don't get stuff, youknow? I still read for things when I'mwhen I'm when it's competitive and Iwant it andYou know, I had a I had I had a [ __ ]I auditioned for something that had ahuge monologue. It was like a two-pagemonologue.And just like I'm saying cuz I I look ata lot of audition tapes from the otherside of the table. If if I'm not Youknow how many people are going tomemorize the [ __ ] out of this monologueand crush it? Why am I even going towaste the time if you're not going to doit? So, for like a week, I worked onmemorizing this monologue.I was walking the dog memorizing workingon the monologue. I was [ __ ] doingthe dishes looking over at themonologue.And I went in there, I played a tapedown and I crushed it. I was so proud ofit.Didn't even get a call back.>> [laughter]>> Didn't even Didn't even get a hey goodjob.

00:51:29[ __ ] you, dude. And uh show cameout and I saw the guy do it and I wentI was so much [ __ ] better than that.And my ego just took a mind. But umbut you know, I didn't I didn't get it,but I [ __ ] brought it. I brought100%. Um that doesn't mean you're goingto get everything. Um they didn't theydidn't want me, they wanted him.>> Yeah.I wonder whether this is one of thereasons thatpeople have such aThis is interesting. I think the numberone desired job of young kids isYouTuber and number two is influencer.>> Oh god, is that true?>> Horrendous, yeah. Um, it kids, if you'reout there, you you don't want thissmoke. I'm telling you.The sheer amount of screen time alonewill kill you. Um, but I I wonderwhether one of the reasons that peoplelike that and why kids don't necessarilyknow what they're getting themselves infor. One of the reasons that maybe olderpeople might like the idea of it is thatthere's kind of no rejectionin the world of you can become notpopular, but no one's telling you thatyou don't get to do the thing.>> You mean as a YouTuber influencer?>> Yeah, yeah, if you're creating you justa solopreneur or a small unit and you'rethe guy that's in front of the camera orwhatever, like what's your thing? Youcan do it as much as you want. You cansend an unlimited

00:52:44number of two-pagemonologues and put them on the internet.And you are the star, even if thatwouldn't have been picked up by somebodyelse and no one it's a permissionlessworld.>> That's interesting.There's clearlyumuhpeople weighing in on whether it worksor not by how many views it's gettingafter a certain amount of time.>> Yeah, but that's not that's a sort of asoft rejection.>> Correct. Yes, exactly. That's exactlywhat I'm thinking.>> Yeah. It's so interesting cuz we didn'thave that uh growing up as a thing.>> Mhm.>> It wasn't a position.>> Well, think about uh some people onYouTube now are even doingsketch shows. Includingyou know,full productions. Like Shane Gillis,Gilly and Keeves, his thing beforehe's now doing tires. Uh,that'sthat was him just [ __ ] about. Likeyou don't need there's no there's a muchsmaller tighter thing.>> Absolutely.>> Yeah.>> Absolutely. And I I think there's a lotof people making a great living beingwhatever their niche YouTube thing is. Igo down the rabbit hole on these peopleand I II I've got some people that I just loveto watch and I'm not even like I've beengoing down the rabbit hole on like theseRV RVs uh you know>> Like van life people?>> Yeah. Well, the recreational vehiclepeople

00:53:59that aregiving tours of their vans. It's not alife I would ever lead, although I loveto go camping in RV. I would never I Idon't want to live full-time in RV, butI'm fascinated by these I've Theyalgorithm has been sending me thesepeople giving tours of their RVs. Oh,yeah, [ __ ] I love it.>> What have I been looking at recently?There's a a guy that plays arole-playing1800sBritish war game, like a a third-personshooter war game online thing, but hedresses in a full kind ofcolonial era British soldier outfit inhis house while he's doing it. And he'sgot a monocle on and he's got a huge[ __ ] trumpet. And as he's doing thelive streaming, he blows the trumpet.He's like, "COME ON, BOYS. DON'T need tobe shy. Let's get them." And he blowsthis I don't know what his neighborsthink the [ __ ] is going on. So, like Igot into him.What else have I been getting into? IYou know what I'm really into now? What?I They [clears throat] have these[ __ ] videos of like the greatest hitsof when detectives get people in theroom, like a liketo to to to to finally admit that theydid it.>> Psychopath finally realizes that he'snot the the detective knows what's goingon or whatever the story.>> Or like

00:55:14guy who murdered all thesepeople finally comes clean and thedetect like and then if someone's cutthe video, they've got a narrator like,"And now, Detective Dumbass Harmon willfinally confront him with the" And yousee their techniques cuz you know, theyhave the camera up in the ceiling andand all these things where they littleby little they move in tighter andtighter. The guy that's one of thetechniques I've learned, you know, theythey closer and closer.And uh you know, they do good cop, badcop. They bring in they switch into awoman, like all these techniques. And,you know, if you watched it for hours,it'd be so boring. But, they've editedit down to like the most insane>> [ __ ] red zone. It's like uh strikezone or whatever it's called in Americanred zone. It's umAmerican football when the football'slive on a Saturday, it's only games thatare in the final 10 yards.>> This is just cuts between that. It's ahighlight reel of the interrogation.This is that for interrogation. But,theythey cut like a a specific case down tothe last like 30 Well, the story of theprogression of I didn't do it to okay, Idid it in 30 minutes.>> Yep.>> And it's and it's fascinating. Oh, man,the algorithm knows I like that.[laughter]I I I I do want to do something withthat just creatively. I've been talkingto aa director aboutI'm really interested I I love thatadolescence that, you know, that show

00:56:30with the one-ers and everything.With with I love that show because Ithought it was so brilliant even outsideof theincredible craftsmanship of making it asas as as a as a one-er.But, I I really I'm interested in inthat that world of the detective workand the performance ofofuh getting someone who's done somethinghorrific to to finally admit it. I thinkthat's so interesting.>> I I would be very interested. I can'tthink I was trying to think in my mindof a TV show where the detective'spersonal cost of hyper-vigilancehas been played out recently. And, Ican't quite think of one. The reasonthat comes to mind I I had aconversation with uh guy called AmirLevine, and he wrote the book Attached.It kind of broke attachment theory intothe world. I think it's the best-sellingattachment book. And, he's just recentlywritten a new one called Secure, whichis anrevisitation and evolution on theprevious one.One of the studies that he taught meabout was they bring uh people into alabwho have had their attachment stylesassessed in advance. And there's someanxious people in the room, there's someavoidant people in the room, and somesecure people in the room. And halfwaythrough the conversation,

00:57:46maybe one ofthose ones where they don't know whetherit's started or not yet. They might bein the waiting room or whatever.And a computer that's in this office orwhatever that they're sat in, computerup the far side just gently startswafting smoke out of it as if it'sthere's some sort of computer firethat's about to occur. And he said thatthe anxious peopleare the first ones to notice.But the avoidant people are the firstones out the door.>> Hmm.>> And what he was thinking about cuz hespent all of this time talking aboutwhat this is what it's like to be anavoidant or a dismissive avoidant or aanxious person or a secure person.And much of what you're talking aboutunless you're talking about secureattachment is here are the problems.Here are the challenges that you need toface. Here is how to overcome them. He'slike, "Well, what about the advantages?"Cuz theyhave to be advantages cuz this has beenselected for, right? Evolutionarily thishas been selected for.So you have a degree of hypervigilancein the anxious people that's allowedthem to pay attention to something thateverybody else might not have noticed.The avoidant people are much quicker tomake a decision. You know, the anxious"Oh, should we leave? Is it going toupset someone? I'm not too The avoidantperson's like just Wiley Coyote'd outthe door.>> Yeah.>> And umwhat that led him to explain to me wasif you were someone that's a an EMT

00:59:02or if you were a a SWAT guy, umpeople who are avoidantly attached areable to partition off part of theirbrain. Like, I don't need those emotionsright now. I don't need you, rumination.I don't need you, worry. I don't needyou, whatever. I got a job to do or Ijust don't want to engage. And theability to I just don't want to engagealso means that there's a [ __ ] personbleeding on the side of the street and Ijust need to do my job. I need to be aprofessional here.>> That's the avoidant person?>> Correct.>> Wow.>> Yes, their ability to partition offlittle bits. Uh but they wouldn't paythe same level of attention. So, if youwere to cast, let's say a acop show in this manner, you wouldexpect most of the guys that are thekinetic door kickers to be avoidantlyattached. And you would expect most ofthe detectives that are paying an awfullot of attention to be anxiouslyattached cuz they're going to beInteresting. I noticed that the killer'sshoe wasuntied on one side. I wonder what theThat's how he tied it. That's how hechoked her. Whatever the [ __ ] Likethat.I know What would be fascinating to mewould be uh looking at somebody from therole of a detective who has thisunbelievable I mean, you've seen thiswith Sherlock Holmes to a degree.Benedict Cumberbatch's replaying of that

01:00:17kind of hears this unreasonablyattention to detail guy in hisprofessional life that can't switch itoff in his private life. But I thinkseeingwhat you are praised for in public youpay for in private.>> Mhm.>> How could that show up inside of a acrime the detective thing? I think wouldbe really cool. So, you've got somethingthat's soprosocial and lauded bringing baddies toto heal and and and you know, catchingthe catching the crims.>> Yeah.>> But then also you've got what's thewhat's the same talent causing on theother side and how is this person payingfor it? I think that would be fun.>> That's interesting.I I you know, you see aspects of thedetective work in the in theinterrogation room in in you know,almost every detective cop show ormovie.Umbut I I I I'm I'm I'm curious. I mean,this is just a side note. Something I'mI'm curious about to develop for the forfor some project in the future is reallyfocusing on all thesetechniques they they are employing.Sometimes they'rethey're bad techniques that theyshouldn't be doing. They're manipulativeand they get false confessions and allthat kind of stuff. Um but I I it's I Ihaven't seen anything that's reallyfocused on

01:01:33their different strategies. I I thinkit's interesting.>> What are the What are some of thecoolest strategies that come to mind?Cuz I remember seeing>> One thing I just watched recently wherethis guy wasn't even speaking and he wasjust just silent. And umthey these two guys were beingaggressive and they were like, "We knowwe we got we know we know what you did.We got" And they did have a lot ofevidence that it was him. They justneeded him to say it.And um

01:02:01they they they said, "Let's give thefemale detective atry." And she came in and she went 180°different. She was like, "Are you cold,sweetheart? Let me get you a Let me getyou a uha blanket." She got him a blanket. Shewas like, "Are you hungry?"And he kind of nodded and she got himfood.And she kind of just sat next to him andand little by little he started openingup to her. And it was just, you know,that's a that's a subtle thing, but uhyou know, there and then if and then heeventually umconfessed. And uh it was all of all ofthem strategizing for how to get him toI don't know. I just think that thatthat's all the stuff those guys are guysand gals are taught is is and thenemployed is really interesting to me.>> That'd be fascinating. One thing thatthey all do, without fail,>> is move closer and closer and closer asthe person is getting uh closer toconfessing. They they they they movetheir physical position.>> say why?>> Um I think it's just likeuh intimacy and and and closeness and umI don't know. That's that's what's beenstudied to work on people.>> Maybe create a sense ofuh inescapableness, too, that as thisperson is opening

01:03:16up a bit more, they'rethey're backed into a corner. They'rebacked into a corner.>> I don't really know fully know thepsychology of it. I just>> Well, as you would have a threeconsultant criminology>> Oh, I I would fully research it. I I Iwould>> But it would be [ __ ] sick.>> Like cuz now you know all of this stuff,which would just be fun to know.>> Yeah, but you could employ it in yourreal life.>> Oh, yeah. Yeah,negotiatea cheaper espresso over the the counterbecause you're getting close and try totouch someone on the arm twice.>> Yeah.>> The adult you saw adolescence, right?>> I did.>> So that third episode with the with thepsychologist>> Ladies were circling in the>> Yeah. I mean, that was just that's anexample where it was done justbrilliantly of her being she's she's nota detective. She's apsychologist, I believe. And uhbut their dynamic uh and the kid is suchan extraordinary. They're bothextraordinary actors. But that was anexample of a fictional account of why Ithought that was so brilliant. Just it'sall dialogue, all brilliant acting, justfocused onuh peeling away the layers.I'd love to see something like that uhmore of something I'm personallyinterested in something like that.>> [ __ ] What was that thing with KitHarington in it? Uh the first episode.It was on Netflix. And then they did aFrench version. And um the whole thingis set inside of one of these. Sothere's

01:04:31been something like this made.>> Well, tell me cuz I'll watch it tonight.I'm going to find>> Dude, it [ __ ] rules. Kit Haringtondetective confessionseries. Let's see if I can get it. A[ __ ] criminal. Called Criminal. Uhit's on Netflix.>> Thank you.>> Um there's two seasons now. And um it's>> One ticket sold.>> Dude, it [ __ ] rules. So the wholething is set this I don't think theyever leavethe floor that this is on. Theysometimes go outside for a [ __ ] coffeeand then come back in. Um but yeah, thatwas that was really really cool.I'm umI'm interested in what you think aboutyou the network TV is supposed to bedead thing?>> Yeah. Scrubs>> revival pulls in like 11 million>> really well.>> people within the first 5 days.>> Yeah, they were wrong.>> What do you think that says about whereaudiences really are?>> I do think they umare still you know, there's there's alot of metrics now for for umfor television both broadcast andstreaming. The first is the liveviewing.That means you watched it when it waslive. Then they're very interested inwhat the live viewing plus 3 daysuh was.

01:05:46How many people uh DVR'd it Ieither DVR'd it and watched it within 3days or a stream uh it was on thestreaming platform they watched itwithin 3 days and then the next metricthey're most interested in is plus 7days. How many people streamed it orwatched the DVR they did of it uh within7 days. So, all of those numbers arevery important uh to the modern-daystreamers and networks.Umthe numbers of people watching broadcastare completely uh tiny fraction of whatthey were back when Scrubs was ontelevision and you know, you the showslike Friends were getting numbers likeyou can't believe.UmumI mean, I I I I I I don't have the statsin front of me but like the MASH finaleuhwas likethe uh you know, a a large percentage ofEarth was watching it, you know?>> Yeah.>> Umthat's just gone.In terms of a live thing other than theSuper Bowl, you know, and I'm surecertain soccer uh games.>> Yep.>> Um it's just not a thing anymore.>> Olympics opening ceremony.>> Whatever they are. We all know what theyare. They're they're usually sports. Umumthe final thing.Umbut the the numbers still are there on

01:07:01broadcast TV for uhfor for certain shows. People do want tonot have>> Survivor?>> Survivor's huge.Umyou know, there are comedies uh youknow, uhuhlike Scrubs and Abbott and uh and forexample, that uhare are doing really meaningful numbersbecause people do still watch broadcast.There are plenty of people that that uhthey they they skew older. Yep.UmObviously, a younger demographic's goingto stream. They're just going to don'tknow. They don't know broadcast. Theydidn't grow up with it.>> I wouldn't be able to watch it. I don'tthink I have a device in my house thatwould be able to access live TV.>> Well, you could really put rabbit earson your TV.>> And go old school.>> Yeah. You can The what the crazy thingabout broadcast is it's in the air. It'sit's free.>> It's not good.>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's the cold open.No, it's uh it's being broadcast toantennas that you could justput an antenna on your TV.>> Still lit.>> And there's plenty of people, believe itor not, that still are are watching uhthat you know, the broadcast um uhchannels only. They don't have they youknow, of course,uh an older audience. UmSo, umbut all of those pockets of

01:08:16the pie, allof those slices of the pie are are areare meaningful and important. So,there's the broadcast uh slice and thenthere's the then there's the streamingplus three, plus seven. Those are Thoseare all people we want to uh to watchthe show. A funny interesting that'shappenedthingAn interesting thing that's hap [ __ ]Take three.An interesting thing that's happened isthat a giantreally meaningful number of people wentoh [ __ ] I never watched this show andwent back and started the series.>> And and uh that's really cool becausealthough it's going to be a minutebefore their numbers affect the new showbecause they're going to have they haveeight and a half long They've got eightand a half seasons to watch.>> Yeah, it's It's run.>> But um but that's really cool, too,because plenty of peoplesaid to themselves, "Oh, I'm interestedin this, but I never watched it, so Ishould probably start at the beginning."Um so, that's been cool, too, becausetheone thing that's fun about the revivalis if if you're liking it and you'reresponding to it, like it seems a lot ofpeople are, and you like thesecharacters, and you never watched theshow. Well, guess what? There's 8 yearsof how they became who they are, uhwhich is which is it's basically amassive prequel, but it wasn't This isthe sequel, but you've watched thesequel first, so go back and watch the

01:09:32the prequel.>> Right, which if you love it is so cool.I would love that. Um it's kind of like,you know, House of the Dragon, Game ofThrones.>> Exactly. I was That's exactly what I wasthinking. Exactly what I was thinking.>> If you're trying to go from JoeyChestnut to Joey Swoll, the RP Strengthapp is the best place to start. I'vebeen in the gym for two decades, and itwasn't until this last year that I hadsome of the best training sessions of mylife, and RP was a massive part of that.Actual scientist built this thing aroundthe obsession to beat up that highschool bullies and provide the mostscience-backed effective path tomaximizing muscle gain. It tells youyour exercises, how many sets, reps, theweights, everything. So, all you have todo is show up and lift. If the RPStrength app could wipe your ass foryou,it probably would. And it adjustsautomatically every week based on howyou're actually progressing. For me,following a proper evidence-based planhas made a massive difference, and ifyou're serious about your training,it'll do the same for you. Right now,you can follow the exact same trainingplan that I use and get up to $50 offthe RP Hypertrophy app by going to thelink in the description below, headingto rpstrength.com/modernwisdomand using the code modernwisdom atcheckout. That'srpstrength.com/modernwisdomand modernwisdom at checkout.>> You know, I watched I watched um a a[ __ ]Is it a knight of a

01:10:47a knight of the kingdoms, thenovella about Duncan and Egg,which is the new Game of Thrones thing.>> Oh, I didn't watch it. Was it good?>> No.>> [laughter]>> Such a shame.I'm such a massive Game of Thrones fan.>> I really liked House of the Dragon.>> I I thought that was [ __ ] wonderful.>> But nothing can beat that first seasonof Game of Thrones. That was just like>> I'm not into that genre at all. At all.>> You don't need to>> And they got me.>> Dude.>> They got everybody.>> I mean, I was at uni No, I wasn't. Iwasn't at uni, but I was still inNewcastle when it was happening. And umthe volume of extras that they neededwith British accents in and aroundIreland or able to access Ireland um wasso [ __ ] high that basically anyone Iknew with a beard was being tapped up.>> Were you Were you>> I wasn't a beardy man at the time,unfortunately. Um but we had a we had afriend who had kind of long hair, lookedsort of warlucky. And uh and he went anddid was he an extra in one of the scenesfor the thing. Cuz it's like, "Hey, wejust need people that are in the [ __ ]British Isles to come and do the thing.">> cool because like they don't make TV onthat scale that much>> Yeah.>> um these days. And it As someone wholoves production and lovesuh filmmakingthe seeing I mean, it would be it became

01:12:03so fun to watch the behind-the-scenesafter the show.>> One of the best parts.>> Because it was like, "Wow, how did youdo that?" And I loved that aspect of it,too. Just to watch, you know, bigbig productions.>> A movie being done once a week. A moviebeing released once a week. Moviequality stuff.>> they were Remember the What's the onewith the the the the big battle uhwhere he's where Kit Haringtonsurrounded We're talking really talkingabout a lot of Kit Harington today. Butwhere he's surrounded the Battle of theBastards, I think it was called orwhatever.>> Yeah. Yeah, your guys are nodding.>> That was just one of the most incrediblydone episodes of television ever.>> Mhm.>> And and then then then you had the fun,if you're into this stuff, of watchinghow the [ __ ] did they do that?>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's uhOne of my favorite things when that wascoming out, I would watch the episodeand then there's a channel calledEmergency Awesome. And he does uhbreakdowns ofev- [ __ ] everything. The guy's likebeen doing it for quite a while. He'sgot a huge channel and he would explainexactly what was going on in the episodeand it kind of gazumped I found outthat, uh, spoiler alert, thatJon Snow was a Targaryen like a fullseason before it it happened on the showbecause he'd realized, "Oh, thisflashback is with[ __ ] Ned Stark and the this thing and>> helping

01:13:18helping you get all contactsthat you wouldn't necessarily>> But he's reading he's like the SherlockHolmes of watching series and, um,>> Oh, he does it on a lot of shows?>> Oh, he does it for [ __ ] all sorts,yeah. He pretty much every big seriesthat's coming out he seems to be of afantasy come sci-fi genre.Um, but one of the things that was funthere was he basically and I realizedthis withGame of Thrones in particular he wasusing the Chekhov's gun thing as a realhack for what was going to happen in infuture episodes. So,there was basically nothing thathappened after seasonthreeespecially season four in Game ofThrones that was superfluous.Nothing. Even though it was big andquite unwieldy there was never apumpkin reference that was done thatwouldn't pay off at some point in futureand he would always be able to say, "Iknow what's going to happen next week.This is what's going to go on becausewe've just seen this thing happen. Youmight have noticed that they brought upthat she wasn't talking much recentlyand that's becauseand I was like, "This guy's>> It's like you watch it after thanbefore.>> I know, but I got and I did kind of ruinthe series for myself. I did kind ofruin it, but I got so much joy out ofyou know, an hour hour and a bit of theepisode, then the 20 10-minute 20-minuteof the behind the scenes,

01:14:33then the nextday I'd go and watch Emergency Awesomeand that would be another hour and I waslike, "Ah, dude, I'm getting like[ __ ] triple my triple my money here.">> watch trailers if I know I'm going to gosee a movie.>> There's a lot that's revealed now.>> Yeah, I I if I'm excited like I justwent and saw the the Ryan Gosling movieProject Tam Mary, which I everyone wastalking about and was excited and Ithought to myself, I'm not even going towatch the trailer cuz I I want to gohave a great experience and not knowwhat to expect. I mean, I know it's anastronaut movie. I don't want to knowanything else.And that's how I that's how I am withmostwhen I know I'm going to go to thetheater, I don't watch the trailer.>> That's fun. I once got umnearly got ejected from Harry Potter andthe Cursed Child. Uh so me this is uhFebruary2022in Manhattanand I went with Douglas Murray, JordanPeterson, Michaela Peterson, TammyPeterson, a couple of their friends andit was whenuh COVID masks were still mandatory.>> Mhm.>> And we were all sat in a line.I'd moved to America 2 days before. So Iwas soI guess crazy as crazy crazy as so bigall of the people are crazy some of themare fat, some of them are beautiful.It's crazy. And then we got to uhdowntown Manhattan, we

01:15:48go to the showand everyone's supposed to have maskson, but you're allowed to you can movethe mask to one side if you'retaking a drink and obviously everyone'shaving refreshments and doing stuff likethat.And ummaybe somebody had takenthere was a chagrin at the fact thatJordan and Douglas who are right codedwerethe thisthe theater or something like that withthe the manager asked and the staffsomething.Somebody was scrutinizing the amount oftime that it was taking Tammy to pullher mask down to take a sip of water tothen put the mask back up and had comeover and mentioned uh maybe she'd liketaking it off and taking a drink orwhatever. Come over andbrought that up during the show. And umthenI don't think the response had beensuper cordial or it had been like okay,like whatever you say.And then it happened again and thensomeone stood at the end of our row andbasically was sort of like on mask watchwatching them and I could hear I was satnext to Douglas and I could hear Douglasdoing breathing exercises trying to keephimself calm and he's going>> [snorts]>> I'm a little anxious my anxiety iscreeping up because of the thought ofwatching a play like that.>> Well I'm watching this while you'rewatching me anywaythe interval the half time intervalwalked out and I said I can't wait towatch this

01:17:04so sure enough I go throughand I seeJordan and Douglas talking to the themanager lady and Douglasthe venue managerand I hear Jordan doingso what do you mean by mask exactly andwhat do you mean by sip exactly and sureenough this lady wasreally really pushing the limit of thisand weI think we we were able to stay I thinkwe stayed until the end but in adisgruntled way and that was I was likeI've been inI've been in America for 3 days and thisplace is like it's just so much morepeople are so much more prepared to callout the things that they don't want onboth sides you know in the UK themanageress would have apologized and theperson that had done it would have apart they would have both apologized toeach other.>> time everyone was so on edge you know.>> Yeah that was that was an interestingone on real man I'm really happy for youit's cool to see someonego full circle and and really love whatthey do you're awesome.>> Thank you I I I really love your yourshow and I love uhwhen I catch lots of inspiring uhadvice from your from your Instagramclips.>> So I really appreciate what you do.>> Thank you I appreciate you man good lucklet's keep in touch appreciate itgoodbye everyone.Congratulations you made it to the endof a full podcast episode you are not so

01:18:19Tik Tok brained that you've completelydissolved into nothingness.Why not watch another one?Right.Go on press it.